Summit on Extremism; Rabbi Jonathan Sacks; Churches in Pubs

>>> COMING UP, THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE WORLD SEARCHING FOR WAYS TO COMBAT EXTREMIST VIOLENCE, OFTEN WAGED IN THE NAME OF RELIGION.

>>> ALSO, PART TWO OF MY INTERVIEW WITH THE FORMER CHIEF RABBI OF GREAT BRITAIN, JONATHAN SACKS, ON RELIGION, SCIENCE AND REPAIRING THE WORLD.

♪♪ >>> AND A LUCKY SEVERSON STORY ON WORSHIP SERVICES IN PUBS.

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>>> WELCOME.

I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

AS THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION HELD ITS LONG-AWAITED THREE-DAY SUMMIT ON COUNTERING VIOLENT EXTREMISM, THE MISUSE OF RELIGION TO JUSTIFY VIOLENCE WAS ALL-TOO EVIDENT IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD.

>>> THE UNITED NATIONS HELD AN EMERGENCY SESSION THIS WEEK TO ADDRESS THE RECENT ATROCITIES COMMITTED BY ISIS MILITANTS.

THE MEETING CAME AMID CALLS FOR ACTION AFTER ISIS RELEASED A GRUESOME VIDEO SHOWING THE BEHEADINGS OF 21 EGYPTIAN COPTIC CHRISTIANS IN LIBYA.

PRAYER VIGILS AND MEMORIAL SERVICES WERE HELD AROUND THE WORLD IN HONOR OF THE VICTIMS.

THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION AND THE WORLD COUNCIL OF CHURCHES WERE PART OF THE WIDE SPECTRUM OF FAITH GROUPS ISSUING HARSH CONDEMNATIONS OF THE KILLINGS.

POPE FRANCIS CALLED THE VICTIMS MARTYRS AND SAID, "THE BLOOD OF OUR CHRISTIAN BROTHERS IS A WITNESS THAT CRIES OUT."

>>> MEANWHILE, IN COPENHAGEN, DENMARK, HUNDREDS OF MOURNERS GATHERED TO PAY THEIR RESPECTS TO THE JEWISH GUARD WHO WAS SHOT AND KILLED AT A SYNAGOGUE LAST WEEK.

THE 22-YEAR-OLD GUNMAN WAS ALLEGEDLY INFLUENCED BY EXTREMIST MUSLIMS.

JUST BEFORE THE SYNAGOGUE SHOOTING, HE SHOT TO DEATH ANOTHER MAN AT A FREE SPEECH RALLY.

THE SUSPECT LATER DIED IN A SHOOTOUT WITH POLICE.

HE REPORTEDLY SWORE ALLEGIANCE TO THE LEADER OF ISIS IN A POST ON FACEBOOK SHORTLY BEFORE THE ATTACKS.

>>> HERE IN THE U.S., SOME MUSLIMS SAID THEY ARE EXPERIENCING A NEW SPIKE IN ATTACKS AGAINST THEIR COMMUNITY, THE MOST SERIOUS BEING LAST WEEK'S MURDER OF THREE MUSLIM-AMERICANS IN NORTH CAROLINA.

AN ISLAMIC INSTITUTE IN HOUSTON WAS DESTROYED BY AN ARSONIST, AND ISLAMIC SCHOOLS IN SEVERAL STATES HAVE BEEN VANDALIZED.

MANY AMERICAN MUSLIMS SEE THOSE INCIDENTS AS A BACKLASH PROMPTED BY EXTREMIST VIOLENCE OVERSEAS.

>>> AT THE WHITE HOUSE EXTREMISM SUMMIT, PROMINENT FAITH LEADERS, POLITICIANS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS DISCUSSED THE GROWING CRISIS GENERATED BY GROUPS SUCH AS ISIS, BOKO HARAM AND AL QAEDA.

PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID THAT WHILE THOSE GROUPS USE RELIGION TO JUSTIFY THEIR ATROCITIES, THE U.S. IS NOT AT WAR WITH ISLAM.

>> NOR SHOULD WE GRANT THESE TERRORISTS THE RELIGIOUS LEGITIMACY THEY SEEK.

THEY ARE NOT RELIGIOUS LEADERS.

THEY'RE TERRORISTS.

[ APPLAUSE ] >>> JOINING ME NOW ARE HARIS TARIN, DIRECTOR OF THE WASHINGTON OFFICE OF THE MUSLIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS COUNCIL WHO WAS AT THE WHITE HOUSE SUMMIT, AND OUR MANAGING EDITOR, KIM LAWTON.

KIM?

>> WELL, HARIS, DO YOU THINK THE SUMMIT THIS WEEK ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING SPECIFIC?

>> WELL, I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE SUMMIT WAS THE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH.

HE SET A VISION AND TRAJECTORY FOR DEALING WITH VIOLENT EXTREMISM.

HE CAME OUT REALLY FORCEFULLY, SAYING THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE COMMUNITIES WHO ARE THE ONES WHO ARE EMPOWERED TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUE OF VIOLENT EXTREMISM.

LAW ENFORCEMENT AND GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AT TIMES ARE NOT THE REAL PARTNERS THAT ARE ABLE TO ACTUALLY ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

IT'S COMMUNITIES WHO NEED TO BE EMPOWERED.

>> WITHIN THIS COUNTRY.

>> WITHIN THIS COUNTRY.

AND INTERNATIONALLY AS WELL, BOB, BOTH.

I THINK IT'S AN ORGANIC THING THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, AN ORGANIC MOVEMENT TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

>> PRIOR TO THE SUMMIT MANY MUSLIMS FELT THAT IT WAS TOO FOCUSED ON MUSLIMS AND ISLAM BEING THE PROBLEM.

DID YOU SHARE THAT CONCERN?

>> WE DID, AND I THINK ESPECIALLY ON THE HEELS OF THE CHAPEL HILL SHOOTINGS.

THERE'S A SENSE OF FEAR IN THE AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY THAT THEY'RE BEING SINGLED OUT.

AND I THINK A LOT OF FOLKS HAD THAT SENTIMENT.

BUT I THINK THE PRESIDENT'S REMARKS REALLY HELPED ALLAY SOME OF THOSE ISSUES.

HE TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT ISLAM IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

IT'S TERRORISM THAT'S A HUMAN PROBLEM.

HE REITERATED SOME OF THE REMARKS HE HAD MADE AT THE NATIONAL PRAYER BREAKFAST THAT ALL FAITHS AT TIMES HAVE GONE THROUGH ISSUES LIKE THIS.

>> BUT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, YES, MAYBE THERE ARE EXTREMISTS IN ALL FAITHS.

BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT WHERE THE BULK OF THE PROBLEM IS RIGHT NOW, MANY PEOPLE SAY, "YOU KNOW, IT IS MUSLIMS WHO ARE USING ISLAM TO JUSTIFY THEIR ATROCITIES."

SO HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY MAKE THAT ARGUMENT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S INDIVIDUALS AND GROUPS USING A PERVERTED VERSION OF ISLAM TO JUSTIFY ATROCITIES.

I THINK THAT'S THE DISTINCTION WE HAVE TO MAKE IS THAT IF YOU LUMP IN 1.5 BILLION PEOPLE WITH THE FEW INSTITUTIONS OR ORGANIZATIONS OR PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THIS, YOU RISK MARGINALIZING REAL ALLIES THAT WE NEED IN THIS FIGHT.

>> HARIS, LOOKING AT THIS WHOLE SITUATION, IT MIGHT SEEM TO A LOT OF US THAT THE MUSLIMS THEMSELVES, THE 1.5 BILLION, SHOULD BE DOING MORE.

SHOULD BE DOING MORE MILITARILY TO TRY TO DEFEAT AND WIPE OUT ISIS.

>> I THINK, BOB, ON THE GROUND MUSLIMS ARE THE ONES WHO ARE TAKING ON THE FIGHT AGAINST ISIS.

IT'S THE KURDISH MUSLIMS, THE SYRIAN MUSLIMS, THE IRAQI MUSLIMS, WHO ARE GETTING THE CASUALTIES, WHO ARE DYING ON THE GROUND, TRYING TO PUSH ISIS BACK ON A DAILY BASIS.

SO THEY ARE TAKING UP THE FIGHT.

>> DO THEY NEED HELP?

>> THEY DO.

I THINK THEY NEED SUPPORT FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, FROM THE U.S., THE EUROPEAN UNION, THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICAN COUNTRIES.

>> WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT?

ARMS OR TROOPS?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY NEED TROOPS.

WHAT THEY NEED IS FINANCIAL SUPPORT.

THEY MIGHT NEED SOME ARMS, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE TO EMPOWER LOCAL COMMUNITIES TO TAKE ON THIS FIGHT.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO WIN THIS BY SENDING MORE TROOPS IN.

>> DO MUSLIMS IN THE MIDDLE EAST BLAME THE UNITED STATES FOR SOME OF THIS STUFF THAT'S GOING ON?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S A SENTIMENT IN THAT REGION, THAT BECAUSE OF THE U.S.

INVASION IN IRAQ, THERE WAS A POWER VACUUM THAT WAS CREATED.

AND THAT POWER VACUUM WAS FILLED BY GROUPS LIKE AL QAEDA AND ISIS BECAUSE THERE'S THE NOTION THAT AL QAEDA DID NOT EXIST IN THAT REGION PRIOR TO THAT INVASION.

AND I THINK THAT'S A SENTIMENT THAT'S FELT ON THE GROUND THAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHEN WE DEAL, WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO DEAL WITH THE BROADER ISSUE.

>> AND NOT JUST MILITARILY, BUT WHAT ABOUT THEOLOGICALLY?

IS THERE A THEOLOGICAL COUNTEROFFENSIVE GOING ON THERE IN THE REGION TO COUNTER, YOU KNOW, THESE THINGS THAT YOU SAY ARE PERVERTED VERSIONS OF ISLAM?

>> THERE IS.

WHEN ISIS STARTED ITS ATROCITIES, THERE WAS A GROUP OF OVER 150 INTERNATIONAL MUSLIM SCHOLARS WHO CAME TOGETHER AND DEBUNKED EVERY SINGLE IDEA THAT ISIS HAD PUT OUT.

BUT IT HAS TO GO BEYOND THE SCHOLARS, KIM.

IT HAS TO GO TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA REALM, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE ISIS REALLY FUNCTIONS.

THEY DON'T FUNCTION IN MOSQUES OR COMMUNITIES.

THEY ARE PREDATORS ONLINE.

AND I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ORGANIC MOVEMENT ONLINE TO ADDRESS THE ARGUMENTS OF ISIS.

>> IS THAT HAPPENING?

IS IT STARTING TO HAPPEN?

>> IT'S SLOWLY STARTING TO HAPPEN.

YOU KNOW, THE AVERAGE MUSLIM HAS A DAILY LIFE TO LEAD.

THEY'RE NOT ONLINE TROLLING ISIS ON A DAILY BASIS.

BUT THERE ARE INSTITUTIONS AND INDIVIDUALS AND GROUPS THAT ARE TAKING ON THE MANTLE AND STARTING TO PUT OUT THE REAL NARRATIVE ONLINE.

>> HARIS TARIN OF THE MUSLIM PUBLIC AFFAIRS COUNCIL, MANY THANKS TO YOU.

IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK.

AND KIM, THANK YOU.

>>> IN OTHER NEWS, THERE WAS CONTINUING CONCERN ABOUT RISING ANTI-SEMITISM IN MANY PARTS OF EUROPE.

IN THE WAKE OF THE COPENHAGEN SYNAGOGUE ATTACK, HUNDREDS OF JEWISH GRAVES WERE DESECRATED IN FRANCE.

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU REITERATED HIS CALL FOR EUROPEAN JEWS TO MOVE TO ISRAEL, BUT MANY JEWISH LEADERS REBUFFED THE INVITATION.

DANISH AND FRENCH OFFICIALS SAID THEY WANT JEWS TO STAY PART OF THEIR COMMUNITIES, AND PLEDGED TO PROTECT THEM.

>>> LAST WEEK HERE WE RAN THE FIRST PART OF MY INTERVIEW WITH THE RETIRED CHIEF RABBI OF GREAT BRITAIN, JONATHAN SACKS, ON RELIGION AND VIOLENCE.

TODAY, RABBI SACKS ON HOPE, REPAIRING THE WORLD AND WHAT HE DESCRIBES AS RELIGION'S PARTNERSHIP WITH SCIENCE.

>> RELIGION AND SCIENCE ARE TWO QUITE DIFFERENT THINGS, AND WE NEED THEM BOTH.

SCIENCE TAKES THINGS APART TO SEE HOW THEY WORK.

RELIGION PUTS THINGS TOGETHER TO SEE WHAT THEY MEAN.

AND THE PURSUIT OF EXPLANATION -- HOW DO THINGS WORK -- AND THE PURSUIT OF MEANING -- WHY AM I DOING THIS, WHY AM I HERE.

THOSE ARE TWO REALLY FUNDAMENTAL AREAS OF HUMAN INTELLIGENCE AND THEY'RE JUST DIFFERENT.

YOU COULDN'T REALLY HAVE RELIGION WITHOUT SCIENCE, OR WE WOULD BE SERVANTS OF NATURE INSTEAD OF WHAT GOD WANTS US TO BE -- MASTERS OF IT, RESPONSIBLE MASTERS OF IT.

BUT WE COULDN'T REALLY HAVE SCIENCE WITHOUT RELIGION OR WE WOULD DISCOVER THAT WE LIVE IN A COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS UNIVERSE AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THINGS WOULD BE VERY SCIENTIFIC, BUT WE WOULD LOSE OUR VERY HUMANITY.

GOD CAN ONLY FORGIVE US IF WE FORGIVE ONE ANOTHER.

>> SACKS BELIEVES THAT RELIGION NOT ONLY GIVES LIFE MEANING, BUT THAT IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR CIVILIZATION.

HE DESCRIBED A RELIGIONLESS LIFE.

>> I THINK WE CAN SAY WHAT A LIFE WITHOUT RELIGION IN THE 21st CENTURY WOULD LOOK LIKE.

IT WOULD SAY THAT YOU AND I ARE NO MORE THAN A COLLECTION OF CHEMICALS, A WHOLE BUNCH OF SELFISH GENES BLINDLY REPRODUCING THEMSELVES INTO THE NEXT GENERATION.

THERE IS NOTHING WHATSOEVER THAT DISTINGUISHES US QUALITATIVELY FROM THE ANIMAL KINGDOM OR ANY OTHER LIFE FORM.

ALL IDEALS ARE ILLUSIONS, ALL HOPES ARE DESTINED TO BE DESTROYED AND LIFE HAS NO MEANING WHATSOEVER.

>> SACKS FINDS IN CHARLES DARWIN'S THEORY OF EVOLUTION NOT SO MUCH OPPOSITION TO RELIGION AS SUPPORT FOR IT.

>> DARWIN CAME UP WITH ONE OF THE MOST PROFOUNDLY RELIGIOUS INSIGHTS OF ALL, BECAUSE DARWINIAN EVOLUTION TELLS US THAT THE CREATOR MADE CREATION CREATIVE.

WE NOW KNOW, HAVING DECODED THE GENOMES OF EVERYTHING, ALL THE WAY UP TO HUMANS, THAT ALL LIFE HAS A SINGLE SOURCE FROM THE MOST PRIMITIVE BACTERIUM TO US.

EVOLUTION IS ACTUALLY A PROFOUNDLY RELIGIOUS INSIGHT.

>> SACKS IS A PHILOSOPHER AS WELL AS A RABBI.

HE SAYS NEITHER REASON NOR SCIENCE CAN PROVE GOD'S EXISTENCE.

>> PEOPLE GET VERY RATTLED WHEN YOU TELL THEM, OF COURSE, YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS.

SO, THEY SAY, IN THAT CASE WHY BELIEVE IN HIM.

AND I REPLY, WELL, YOU KNOW, PROVE TO ME THAT HAVING A SENSE OF HUMOR IS WORTHWHILE.

PROVE TO ME THAT A LIFE WITHOUT A SENSE OF MUSIC IS MISSING SOMETHING.

PROVE TO ME THAT IT'S BETTER TO BE AN OPTIMIST THAN A PESSIMIST.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE, THAT IT IS BETTER TO TRUST THAN TO BE SUSPICIOUS, THAT IT IS BETTER TO LOVE THAN TO HATE.

>> SACKS' CONVERSATIONS ARE OFTEN RICH WITH STORIES.

>> WE HAD A WONDERFUL JEWISH ATHEIST, A BRILLIANT MAN WHO WAS A PROFESSOR OF PHILOSOPHY HERE IN NEW YORK AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY CALLED SIDNEY MORGENBESSER.

AND TOWARDS THE END OF HIS LIFE WHEN HE WAS SUFFERING QUITE A LOT, SAID TO A FELLOW PHILOSOPHER, "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY GOD IS SO ANGRY WITH ME JUST BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IN HIM."

>> SACKS SAYS THE GREATEST OBSTACLE TO BELIEF IN GOD IS THE REALITY OF PAIN AND EVIL.

HOW COULD A LOVING GOD PERMIT SO MUCH SUFFERING?

>> I DON'T EXPLAIN EVIL.

I FEEL THE PROBLEM.

I ACTUALLY SAY, THOUGH THIS SOUNDS VERY PARADOXICAL, THAT FAITH IS IN THE QUESTION, NOT THE ANSWER.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE HEBREW BIBLE THE PEOPLE WHO RAISE THIS QUESTION ARE NOT SKEPTICS OR ATHEISTS, THEY ARE THE HEROES OF FAITH.

ABRAHAM IN GENESIS 18 SAYS, "SHALL THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH NOT DO JUSTICE?"

MOSES IN EXODUS CHAPTER 5 SAYS, "GOD WHY HAVE YOU MADE YOUR PEOPLE SUFFER?"

>> SACKS IS VERY PROUD OF THE JEWISH EMPHASIS NOT ONLY ON STUDY AND TRADITION BUT ON ACTIONS -- BEING PARTNERS WITH GOD TO REPAIR THE WORLD.

>> JUDAISM TENDS TO BE A RELIGION OF DEEDS AND MAKING THE WORLD BETTER, WHAT WE CALL TIKKUN OLAM.

SO WE REALLY DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ATHEISTS OR AGNOSTICS SO LONG AS THEY ARE WILLING TO WORK ALONG WITH US TO MAKE THE WORLD A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PLACE.

WE DON'T ASK THAT EVERYONE WHO COMES INSIDE THIS SYNAGOGUE BELIEVES IN ALL ELEMENTS OF JEWISH FAITH.

WE JUST SAY COME AND BE PART OF THE COMMUNITY, BECAUSE IT IS IN COMMUNITY THAT WE FIND MEANING, THAT WE FIND RELATIONSHIP, THAT WE FIND FRIENDSHIP AND LOVE, AND IT IS IN COMMUNITY THAT WE CHANGE THE WORLD.

>> FOR SACKS, PERHAPS THE GREATEST ARGUMENT FOR RELIGION MAY BE THE COURAGE AND HOPE OF THE PEOPLE HE HELPS LEAD.

>> THE MOST IMPORTANT DISTINCTION TO MAKE IS BETWEEN TWO IDEAS THAT SOUND SIMILAR AND ARE IN FACT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

ONE IS CALLED OPTIMISM.

THE OTHER IS CALLED HOPE.

OPTIMISM IS THE BELIEF THAT THINGS ARE GOING TO GET BETTER.

HOPE IS THE BELIEF THAT IF WE WORK HARD ENOUGH, AND TOGETHER, WE CAN MAKE THINGS BETTER.

BUT IT TAKES A GREAT DEAL OF COURAGE TO HAVE HOPE.

NO JEW KNOWING OUR HISTORY CAN BE AN OPTIMIST, BUT NO JEW WORTHY OF THE NAME EVER GAVE UP HOPE.

THE STORY OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE IS THE STORY OF THE VICTORY OF HOPE OVER DESPAIR AND OF THE SPIRIT OVER EVERY KIND OF PHYSICAL POWER.

WE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER GAVE UP HOPE AND I WANT TO SAY TO YOU, YOU NEEDN'T BE AN OPTIMIST, BUT YOU MUST NEVER GIVE UP HOPE, BECAUSE TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A BETTER WORLD.

>> SACKS ADDED THAT WHAT THE U.S. STUDENTS HE HAS MET ARE SEEKING MOST DESPERATELY IS A SENSE OF HOPE.

>>> NOW, A LUCKY SEVERSON STORY, BEGINNING WITH THE COMPLAINT OF SOME YOUNG PEOPLE THAT THEY FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE GOING TO CHURCH.

SO SOME PASTORS ARE TAKING WORSHIP SERVICES AND CONVERSATIONS ABOUT RELIGION TO THEM -- IN PUBS.

♪♪ >> Reporter: IF IT'S 5:00 P.M. ON SUNDAY, AND IT'S THE ZIA CARLO BREW PUB IN TEXAS, IT MUST BE TIME FOR CHURCH.

IN NO WAY IS THIS MEANT TO MAKE LIGHT OF WORSHIPPING.

IT'S JUST ANOTHER WAY.

PASTOR PHILLIP HEINZE IS A SENIOR PASTOR AT THE CALVARY LUTHERAN CHURCH IN FORT WORTH, TEXAS.

HE STARTED WORSHIPING IN A PUB FOUR YEARS AGO WHEN HE REALIZED THAT ATTENDING CHURCH FOR SOME PEOPLE IS FRIGHTENING.

>> WE HAD A COUPLE OF YOUNG MEN COME, AND THEY SAY THE MOST DIFFICULT THING FOR US WAS WALKING THROUGH THOSE DOORS -- THAT FOR US CHURCH JUST IS A SCARY PLACE.

THAT WAS PROBABLY THE CONVERSATION THAT INFORMED ME THE MOST.

I SAID, WELL, LET'S TRY A NEW CHURCH IN A PLACE THAT'S NOT SO SCARY.

>> YOU ARE WELCOME AND ACCEPTED AND LOVED HERE, AND I SAY THIS CONFIDENTLY, BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT JESUS DID AND SAID.

>> Reporter: THIS EXPERIMENT HAS BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL THE CALVARY LUTHERAN CHURCH ORDAINED PASTOR ETHAN BEILER AS A FULL-TIME MINISTER FOR THIS AND ANOTHER CHURCH-PUB IN FORT WORTH.

>> WE HAVE THE MERK PLAYING -- >> ALTHOUGH THE MUSIC MAY NOT SOUND LIKE A CHURCH CHOIR, THIS IS A CHURCH SERVICE.

>> OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME.

>> AND THAT, FOR ME, IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MOMENTS TO HEAR THE LORD'S PRAYER, PRAYED IN THIS PLACE.

>> WELCOME FRIENDS, TO PUB THEOLOGY DC.

IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US TONIGHT.

>> Reporter: HERE IN WASHINGTON, YOU CAN FIND PASTOR BRYAN BERGHOEF OF THE CHRISTIAN REFORMED CHURCH OF NORTH AMERICA MEETING WITH FOLKS FROM VARYING DENOMINATIONS, OR NONE AT ALL, IN A BACK ROOM OF THE FAMOUS BIER BARON TAVERN.

>> OUR GROUP HAS NO PRAYER, NO WORSHIP, NO PREACHING -- JUST OPEN CONVERSATION.

>> Reporter: THE FIRST TOPIC OF DISCUSSION -- WOULD GOD INTERVENE FOR ONE TEAM OR THE OTHER IN THE SUPER BOWL.

>> THIS WHOLE THING FOR ME BRINGS UP THE OVERALL QUESTION IS GOD AN INTERVENTIONIST?

WHEN YOU ANSWER THAT THEN THE REST OF THIS RESOLVES ITSELF.

>> Reporter: PASTOR BERGHOEF ALSO DOES CHURCH-PUB SERVICES IN ILLINOIS.

HE'S WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED "PUB THEOLOGY: BEER, CONVERSATION, AND GOD."

>> PEOPLE LOVE GETTING INTO TOPICS THAT REALLY STRETCH THE MIND, WHETHER IT'S ABOUT FREE WILL OR GOOD AND EVIL OR IS THERE AN AFTERLIFE AND IF SO WHAT IS THAT LIKE?

PEOPLE WANT TO ENGAGE THOSE THINGS AND I THINK INCREASINGLY IN A SETTING WHERE THE CONVERSATION CAN EXPLORE THE EDGES THAT PERHAPS CERTAIN FAITH TRADITIONS HAVE SORT OF NOT ALLOWED.

>> MY CONGREGATION COMES TO THIS CHURCH ON SUNDAY MORNINGS, AND WE DON'T SERVE BEER.

THE STRONGEST THING WE SERVE IS COFFEE.

>> Reporter: IF THE NUMBER OF CHURCHES IN PUBS CONTINUES TO GROW, PASTOR STEVE HOLLEY SAYS IT WILL NOT BE WITH THE HELP OF THE IMMANUEL BIBLE CHURCH IN SPRINGFIELD, VIRGINIA.

HOLLEY IS THE PASTOR OF MINISTRIES AT THIS NONDENOMINATIONAL MEGACHURCH.

HE SAYS HIS CONGREGATION WOULD OPPOSE MIXING RELIGION WITH ALCOHOL.

>> YOU KNOW, THE SCRIPTURES ASK FOR US TO BE SOBER-MINDED, TO NOT WALK IN DRUNKENNESS, BUT TO REALLY FOCUS ON THE GOODNESS AND GRACE OF GOD.

AND I THINK WHEN YOUR MINDS ARE DESENSITIZED, WHEN YOU USE ALCOHOL TO TRY TO COMBINE THAT IN SOME SORT OF WORSHIP ENVIRONMENT, I JUST DON'T SEE HOW THAT IS HELPFUL.

>> WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE 2011.

I CANNOT REMEMBER ANY OCCASION WHERE ANY OF THE FOLKS THAT WE HAD COMING HERE FOR PUB CHURCH HAVE EVER BEEN OVER-SERVED.

>> GRAB SOME MORE BEER, GRAB SOME PIZZA, SIT DOWN AND ENJOY.

>> Reporter: PASTOR BEILER'S THOUGHT IS SIMILAR TO ONE EXPRESSED BY POPE FRANCIS.

HE'S QUOTED AS SAYING, "WE NEED SAINTS THAT LOVE THE EUCHARIST, THAT ARE NOT AFRAID OR EMBARRASSED TO EAT A PIZZA OR DRINK A BEER WITH THEIR FRIENDS."

>> THE BODY OF CHRIST GIVEN TO YOU.

>> Reporter: NOT QUITE AS MANY IN THE CONGREGATION AS USUAL.

IT'S SUPER BOWL SUNDAY.

BUT MOST PEOPLE HERE ARE PARTICIPATING IN COMMUNION.

>> THE BODY OF CHRIST GIVEN FOR YOU.

>> WE'VE DONE THREE BAPTISMS HERE AT ZIO CARLO, WHICH IS, AGAIN, A POWERFUL KIND OF EXPERIENCE TO HAVE A BAPTISM IN A PUBLIC SPACE.

WE BAPTIZED A MOTHER AND HER SON WHO HAD NEVER CONSIDERED THAT.

NOW SHE'S MOVED ON TO GO A TRADITIONAL CHURCH BECAUSE SHE HAS KIND OF FOUND THE LORD.

>> Reporter: SURVEYS HAVE SHOWN THAT AMONG CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS, MANY ARE LOSING MEMBERS, YOUNG FOLKS IN PARTICULAR.

IN FACT, IT WAS SOME OF THE OLDER GENERATION IN PASTOR HEINZE'S CONGREGATION THAT ENCOURAGED HIM TO PREACH IN A PUB.

>> WHAT THEY WANT US TO DO IS FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET THEIR GRANDKIDS INTO IT, NOT JUST INTO THE PEW, BUT INTO FAITH.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE PEW.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH.

IT'S ABOUT DO YOU TRUST GOD AND BELIEVE IN JESUS AS THE ONE WHO GIVES YOU THE ABILITY TO LIVE YOUR LIFE IN A DIFFERENT WAY?

>> Reporter: IT'S A MESSAGE THAT RINGS RIGHT FOR CHRIS COOK AND ASHLEY RICHARDSON, ENGAGED TO BE MARRIED.

NEITHER HAS BEEN ATTENDING CHURCH FOR SOME TIME.

>> NOT PROBABLY SINCE I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.

>> I WENT TO A FEW DIFFERENT CHURCHES, BUT I NEVER REALLY FOUND A FAMILY AT ANY OF THEM.

>> Reporter: THE COUPLE HAS ASKED PASTOR BEILER TO MARRY THEM, AND THEY THINK THEY'VE FOUND A CHURCH.

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT I WOULD HAVE THE CONFIDENCE TO GO INTO A CHURCH THAT'S TRADITIONAL JUST BECAUSE IT'S -- >> YOU FEEL A LITTLE BIT OUT OF PLACE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE SIGHT OF IS THE GLORY OF GOD AND HIS GOSPEL, AND I THINK THAT WHEN YOU TRY TO MOVE ENTERTAINMENT, WHICH IS WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER WHAT THAT IS, INTO THE CHURCH YOU LOSE SIGHT OF THE REAL PURPOSE OF THE CHURCH, OF ADVANCING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TO THE WORLD.

>> Reporter: PASTOR HOLLEY BELIEVES CHURCH-PUBS ARE A PASSING FAD THAT WON'T STAND THE TEST OF TIME.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S AN ANSWER OR A NEXT THING, BUT I THINK IT JUST SPEAKS TO PEOPLE'S HUNGER.

SO I THINK IT'S A COMPLEMENT REALLY, NOT NECESSARILY A REPLACEMENT TO OUR TRADITIONAL CHURCHES OR SYNAGOGUES OR RELIGIOUS LOCAL CONGREGATIONS, BUT I THINK IT'S A SUPPLEMENT.

>> Reporter: AT PUB THEOLOGY IN WASHINGTON, MOST BELIEVE THAT TRADITIONAL CHURCHES ARE TOO RIGID AND CONFINING.

CHRIS CHATALING SAMSON, A PASTOR AT A PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, SAYS HE CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING.

>> FOR NOT ONLY YOUNGER PEOPLE, BUT MAYBE ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE, WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF SAY IN THE CHURCH.

>> BUT I THINK THERE IS A GREAT NUMBER OF NEW MISSIONS THAT ARE STARTING OUT THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES, THROUGHOUT THE WORLD THAT WILL LOOK VERY, VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE'VE BEEN USED TO OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF DECADES.

>> Reporter: THIS PARTICULAR PUB MISSION MAY BE ONLY A FAD, BUT DON'T TELL THAT TO KATIE SAMSON.

>> IF ANYTHING, EVERYBODY HAS BEEN REALLY EXCITED ABOUT IT.

THEY'RE, LIKE, BEER, RELIGION, FAITH -- TALKING ABOUT IT TOGETHER IN A COMMUNITY -- THIS IS SUCH AN AWESOME IDEA.

WHY DON'T WE DO THIS FOR CHURCH ALL THE TIME?

>> Reporter: IT'S ESTIMATED THERE ARE UPWARDS OF 130 CHURCH PUBS IN THE U.S., MANY MORE IN EUROPE, AND THAT THE NUMBER IS GROWING.

FOR "RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY," I'M LUCKY SEVERSON IN FORT WORTH, TEXAS.

>> CATHOLICS ALSO HAVE BROUGHT RELIGION INTO PUBS UNDER THE TITLE "THEOLOGY ON TAP."

>>> FINALLY, ON OUR CALENDAR THIS WEEK.

WESTERN CHRISTIANS OBSERVED ASH WEDNESDAY -- THE BEGINNING OF LENT, THE PERIOD OF FASTING AND PRAYER LEADING UP TO EASTER.

AT THE VATICAN, POPE FRANCIS PRESIDED OVER THE TRADITIONAL ASH WEDNESDAY SERVICE WITH ITS IMPOSITION OF ASHES AS A SYMBOL OF PENANCE AND MORTALITY.

FOR EASTERN CHRISTIANS WHO FOLLOW A DIFFERENT CALENDAR, THE PERIOD THEY CALL GREAT LENT BEGINS ON MONDAY WITH CLEAN MONDAY.

>>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR NOW.

I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

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AS WE LEAVE YOU, SCENES FROM CHINESE LUNAR NEW YEAR CELEBRATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, WELCOMING THE YEAR OF THE SHEEP.

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