Dividing The United Methodist Church

[♪♪♪] [APPLAUSE] >> THE U.S. SUPREME COURT ENGRAVED THIS RIGHT IN CONCRETE WHEN IT RULED SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

THE HISTORY OF THE CAMPAIGN FOR MARRIAGE EQUALITY GOES BACK TO 1970.

WHEN TWO MALE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA STUDENTS APPLIED FOR A MARRIAGE LICENSE AND WERE DENIED BECAUSE THEY WERE BOTH MEN.

SINCE THEN, THE LAW AND AMERICAN PUBLIC OPINION REVOLUTIONIZED FAIRLY QUICKLY.

BUT DESPITE THIS, THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH HAS NOT PROGRESSED IN THIS CRITICAL REGARD.

THE CHURCH REMAINS OFFICIALLY OPPOSED TO HOMOSEXUAL AND GAY PASTORS.

ITS OFFICIAL RULE BOOK STATES THE PRACTICE OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH CHRISTIAN TEACHING.

BUT NOT ALL UNITED METHODIST CONGREGATIONS AGREE WITH THE CHURCH'S VIEW ON THIS ISSUE.

THE FIGHT IS TESTING THE FAITH MORE THAN EVER AND DIVIDING THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH.

[♪♪♪] [♪♪♪] >> CAPITAL PRIDE IS AN ANNUAL EVENT IN WASHINGTON D.C.

CELEBRATING THE GAY, LESBIAN, BY SEX YEWAL, TRANSJENNER AND QUESTIONING COMMUNITY.

IT BRINGS TOGETHER NATIONAL AND LOCAL LGBTQ ORGANIZATIONS AS WELL AS SUPPORTERS FROM POLITICIANS TO CORPORATE CHIEF CHIEFTANS AND CHURCH GROUPS.

ONE CHURCH IS WASHINGTON D.C.-BASED FOUNDRY UNITED METHODIST CHURCH.

IT HAS A LONG HISTORY OF BEING OPEN AND WELCOMING TO THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY.

PASTORS GINGER IS HEAD PASTOR AT FOUND DRY.

FOUNDRY.

>> FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

THANKS BE TO GOD.

>> PASTOR GINGER, THE BOOK SAYS HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT BEING A PART?

>> I AM PART OF THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH AND FROM THE DAY I WAS ORDAINED IN WHICH I SAID I WOULD SUPPORT THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH I KNEW I WOULD BE WORKING TO CHANGE WHAT THE BOOK OF DISCIPLINE SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY.

>> I THINK IT IS COUPTER TO THE WORD OF GOD THAT WE FIND IN SCRIPTURE.

THE WAY I DEAL WITH THE BOOK OF DISCIPLINE IS TO FIGHT IT.

>> PASTOR GINGER AND THE FOUNDRY CONGREGATION ARE NOT FIGHTING ALONE.

THEY BELONG TO THE RECONCILING MINISTRIES NETWORK OR RMN A GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATION OF CONGREGATIONS AND COMMUNITIES COMMITTED TO THE FULL INCLUSION OF LGBTQ PERSONS IN THE LIFE AND MINISTRIES OF THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH.

>> OUR DENOMINATION SUPPORTS THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF LGBTQ PERSONS IN THE WORLD.

BUT DENIES THOSE RIGHTS AND RIGHTS ARE ITES WITHIN THE CHURCH.

>> THE REVEREND Dr. KAREN IS ONE OF THE LEADERS OF RMN AND PASTOR AT GLIDE MEMORIAL CHURCH IN SAN FRANCISCO.

ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE OPEN AND CONTROVERSIAL UNITED METHODIST CHURCHES IN THE U.S >> GOES TO SHOW THAT YOU ARE CHRISTIAN BY YOUR LOVE.

>> EVERY CHURCH HAS TO DO THAT MORAL INVENTORY WHOSE DIGNITY ARE WE NOT HONORING?

AND THE BIGGEST ONE IS OK TO TELL A LESBIAN OR GAY PERSON I'M NOT GOING TO BAPTIZE YOU AND RECEIVE YOU INTO MEMBERSHIP AND HONOR YOUR CALL TO MINISTRY AND I'M NOT GOING TO MARRY YOU.

AND THAT IS THE ONLY GROUP OFFICIALLY WRITTEN INTO OUR BOOK OF RULES.

>> THE FOUNDER OF THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH JOHN WESLEY IS OFTEN QUOTED AS SAYING THOUGH WE MAY NOT ALL THINK ALIKE MAY WE LOVE ALIKE.

THE BATTLE OVER GAY INCLUSION HAS BEEN GOING ON WITHIN THE CHURCH FOR 40 YEARS AND AT THE CENTER IS INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE.

>> YOU CAN FAULT THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH FOR MANY THINGS BUT YOU CANNOT FAULT US FOR IS AN UNWILL TO DISCUSS THIS ISSUE.

>> REVEREND ROB RENFRO IS A PASTOR AT THE 11,000-MEMBER WOODLANDS CONGREGATION IN HOUSTON, TEXAS.

HE IS ALSO THE PRESIDENT OF GOOD NEWS, A NATIONAL ORGANIZATION THAT CALLS ITSELF THE LEADING EVANGELICAL ADVOCATE FOR THE UMC.

MANY LOOK UPON THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH GOOD NEWS AS THE ANTIGAY FACTION WITHIN THE CHURCH.

RENFRO SAYS FOR HIM OTHER CLERGY AND MANY UMC MEMBERS IT'S ABOUT FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE.

>> MY POSITION REGARDING SAME SEX MARRIAGES IN THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH AND ORDAINING OPENLY GAY PRACTICING PERSONS IS THE SAME AS THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH'S POSITION.

WE BELIEVE THAT ALL PERSPECTIVES SHOULD BE AND ARE WELCOME IN OUR CHURCHES.

BUT THE BIBLE IS CLEAR ABOUT SAME GENDER SEXUAL RELATIONS IN A NEGATIVE WAYP THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH HAS DECIDED THAT MARRIAGE IS THE UNION OF ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.

AND OUR CHURCH'S POSITION THAT WE SIMPLY CANNOT MARRY TWO PEOPLE OF THE SAME GENDER BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE THEY ARE GOD'S WORD.

>> THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

>> JONES MEMORIAL SENIOR PASTOR KENNETH LIVINGSTON SAYS TRADITIONALISTS ARE OPEN TO DEBATE ABOUT SCRIPTURE BUT GOD WORD STANDS.

>> I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT COULD BE MISINTERPRETTATION.

BUT I THINK AGAIN IF YOU LOOK AND I'VE ASKED THIS QUESTION: WOULD YOU SHOW ME POINT OUT TO ME.

ONE SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE ANY SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE IN WHICH HOMOSEXUALITY IS SEEN IN A POSITIVE LIGHT.

NO ONE IS ABLE TO DO THAT.

THEY CAN TELL ME OTHER SCRIPTURES ABOUT OTHER SUBJECTS BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT YOU CANNOT DO THAT.

FOR ME, I WILL HAVE TO COME ON THE SIDE OF WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS AS OPPOSED TO WHAT MY BROTHERSP SISTERS WHOM I LOVE FEEL IN THEIR HEARTS.

>> THE METHODIST CHURCH TRACES ROOTS BACK TO THE 1700'S AND THE LEADERSHIP OF JOHN WESLEY.

>> WESLEY AND THE EARLY METHODISTS PLACED EMPHASIS ON CHRISTIAN LIVING PUTTING FAITH AND LOVE INTO ACTION OR PRACTICAL DIVINITY.

UNLIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH HAS AN INDIVIDUAL EXECUTIVE WHO DICTATES POLICY, THE UMC'S AUTHORITY IS WITH A GLOBAL LEGISLATIVE BODY.

THE GENERAL CONFERENCE IS MADE UP OF CLERGY AND LAITY AND MEETS EVERY FOUR YEARS.

IN 1984, THE GENERAL CONFERENCE ADDED TO ITS BOOK OF DISCIPLINE, THE STATEMENT THAT QUOTE NO SELF EVOWED PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL SHALL BE ORDAINED OR APPOINTED IN THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH.

END QUOTE.

AND IN 196, A POLICY FORBIDDING ANY SAME SEX COMMITMENT CEREMONIES TO BE CELEBRATED IN THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCHES OR BY UNITED METHODIST PASTORS WAS ADOPTED.

WITH SOCIETY ACCEPTING AND MORE UMC CLERGY ACCEPTING THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, MANY BELIEVE ANTI-HOMOSEXUALITY POLICIES WOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE BOOK OF DISCIPLINE AT THE GENERAL CONFERENCE IN 2012.

BUT AFTER MUCH DEBATE, REMOVING THE POLICIES WAS VOTED DOWN.

EVEN A PROPOSAL TO REPLACE THE POLICY WITH A STATEMENT NOTING THE DISAGREEMENT WAS VOTED DOWN.

>> IT WAS 2012 GENERAL CONFERENCE GALVANIZING FOR ME BECAUSE I HAD LIVED WITH THE ILLUSION THAT THE CHURCH WAS GOING TO CHANGE WITH TIME AND HISTORY WOULD CHANGE OUR ATTITUDES.

BUT IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

AND IT BECAME VERY CLEAR AT THAT CONFERENCE WHEN THE VOTE WAS 61-39%, THAT THE CHURCH HAD HARDENED ON THE ISSUE.

>> THE DEBATE IS NOT ONLY DIVIDING THE CHURCH ACCORDING TO THE PUBLIC RELIGION RESEARCH INSTITUTE SURVEY, IT IS ALSO CAUSING THE UMC TO LOSE MEMBERS ESPECIALLY MILLENNIALS.

>> IF WE CANNOT GET CLEAR AND GIVE A CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE WORLD AROUND US THAT THE CHURCH IS OPEN TO ALL PEOPLE.

THEN PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO NOT WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH US.

>> THE FAILURE TO CHANGE THE BOOK OF DISCIPLINE ALSO EMBOLDENED MANY PASTORS TO OFFICIATE AT SAME-SEX MARRIAGES.

[♪♪♪] >> THIS IS A NEW COVENANT.

>> PROTESTS ERUPTED IN 2013 WHEN REVEREND FRANK SCHAEFFER OF PENNSYLVANIA WAS PUT ON TRIAL CONDITION THE CHURCH FOR OFFICIATING AT HIS GAY SON'S WEDDING.

HE WAS FOUND GUILTY.

LOST HIS MINISTERIAL CREDENTIALS AND CONGREGATION.

>> IT IS SUCH A JOY AND HONOR TO BE BACK IN MY HOME CHURCH.

>> THE REVEREND WAS LATER REINSTATED OTHER PASTORS ARE FACING CHARGES AND TRIALS FOR OFFICIATING AT SAME SEX WEDDINGS AND BEING OPENLY GAY.

REVEREND BENJAMIN HUTCHISON AN OPENLY GAY AFRICAN METHODIST PASTOR WAS FORCED TO RESIGN FROM HIS CHURCH BECAUSE OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS SPOUSE.

[INAUDIBLE] >> THE WEEK AFTER HIS RESIGNATION HE MARRIED HIS PARTNER WITH SUPPORT FROM LOCAL UMC CLERGY.

NINE OF WHOM COMPLAINTS FILED AGAINST THEM FOR CO-PRESIDING AT THE WEDDING.

REF REPRESENTED JOHN DECIDED TO GO PUBLIC IN 2013 WITH HIS OPPOSITION TO THE CHURCH'S POLICIES ON SAME-SEX MARRIAGE.

AND ENCOURAGED OTHERS IN THE VIRGINIA CONFERENCE TO FOLLOW.

A YEAR LATER, HE TOOK A RISKIER STEP OFFICIATING AT HIS FRIEND'S AND COLLEAGUE'S SAME SEX WEDDING.

>> THERE WAS RISK I WAS GOING AGAINST FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES IN THE VIRGINIA CONFERENCE AND WAS THE FIRST PERSON AS FAR AS I KNOW, TO CHALLENGE THE CHURCH'S TEACHING ON THAT.

>> IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME THAT WE WOULD BE MARRIED UNDER GOD SO TO SPEAK AND WE BE MARRIED IN A RELIGIOUS AND CIVIL CEREMONY.

>> SARA AND I WORK IN MINISTRY TOGETHER AT THE CORE OF WHAT WE DO.

AND SO IT SEEMED SILLY TO GO TO A JUSTICE OF THE PEACE.

>> BUT IT WAS THEIR CIRCUMSTANCE THAT PUSHED JOHN TO DEFY THE CHURCH.

>> MY SISTER WAS MURDERED BACK IN SEPTEMBER OF 2014.

HER THREE CHILDREN WOULD HAVE BEEN SEPARATED INTO DIFFERENT HOMES.

THERE WAS NOT ANOTHER PLACE FOR THEM TO GO.

THE STATE OF VIRGINIA HAD MADE IT CLEAR THAT TWO PEOPLE WHO ARE COHABITING AND NOT MARRIED WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO FOSTER OR KINSHIP CARE THEIR CHILDREN OF INTEREST.

>> JOHN WAS THRILLED HE COULD HELP SARA AND DA LYNN.

>> I WAS THRILLED BECAUSE WE HAVE BROKEN THROUGH A LOT OF BARRIERS THAT I HAD BEEN PREPARING MYSELF FOR THIS.

THE NEXT DAY WHEN I CALLED MY DISTRICT SUPERINTENDENT IT WAS SOBERING BECAUSE HE DID FEEL I HAD BROKEN COVENANT WITH THE CHURCH WHICH TO ME IS A VERY PAINFUL STATEMENT TO MAKE AND A CHARGE TO MAKE THAT I HAD BROKEN COVENANT WITH THE CHURCH AT THE TIME IT WAS PAINFUL TO HEAR.

>> A COMPLAINT WAS FILED AGAINST JOHN.

AFTER MONTHS OF NEGOTIATIONS, HE WAS SUSPENDED FOR THREE MONTHS.

>> MY ARGUMENT LATER ON WAS THAT I HAD NOT BROKEN COVENANT WITH THE CHURCH THAT IT WAS THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH THAT TALK ME TO RESIST EVIL AND INJUSTICE IN WHATEVER FORMS THEY PRESENT THEMSELVES.

>> WE ARE GRATEFUL FOR PEOPLE LIKE JOHN WHO ARE WILLING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES ARE.

BECAUSE THE CONSEQUENCES COULD BE VERY HARSH AND HE WAS WILLING TO ACCEPT THOSE CONSEQUENCES.

SO I'M GRATEFUL AND I WOULD ASSUME YOU ARE AS WELL?

>> SARA AND DA LYNN ARE ABLE TO HAVE ALL THREE CHILDREN IN THEIR CARE.

LOCATED IN THE HEART OF THE SHENENDEHOWA VALLEY, HARRISONBURG VIRGINIA IS HOME TO RISE A UNITED METHODIST CHURCH WHICH EVERY SUNDAY TRANSFORMS THE LOCAL COURT SQUARE THEATER INTO A PLACE OF WORSHIP.

[♪♪♪] RISE IS AN OPEN COMMUNITY WHERE EVERYONE IS WELCOME.

IN 2012 PASTOR AMANDA MILLER GARBER WAS ASKED TO OFFICIATE AT THEIR SAME SEX WEDDING.

AFTER MUCH THOUGHT PASTOR AMANDA DECLINED TO PERFORM THE WEDDING.

>> I DO MY ORDINATION VOWS SERIOUSLY.

AND I AM NOT ONE TO RUN AROUND BREAKING PROMISES TO OTHERS AND TO GOD.

AND I HAD LIVED IN THIS VERY PAINFUL, DIFFICULT PLACE WITH WHAT THE BOOK OF DISCIPLINE SAYS FOR A LONGTIME.

AT THAT POINT IN TIME I WAS TOO FEARFUL OF WHAT THE REPERCUSSIONS WOULD BE.

ALSO RIDES WAS VERY, VERY YOUNG AT THAT POINT.

WE ARE FIVE NOW BUT WE WERE IN THE SPACE WHERE I WAS NOT SURE THAT AS A COMMUNITY WE COULD WITHSTAND WHAT COULD HAPPEN.

AND THEN I WENT TO GENERAL CONFERENCE AND I EXPERIENCED THE VENOM AND THE RHETORIC AND THE FEAR, THE NAUSEATING FEAR.

>> TWO YEARS LATER SHE WAS ASKED AGAIN AND THIS TIME HER ANSWER WAS YES.

>> I HAD AN INDESCRIBABLE SENSE THAT THIS IS WHAT GOD WANTED ME TO DO.

AND IT WASN'T LIKE GLOWING ON THE MOUNTAIN TOP OR FIREWORKS OR IT'S NOT THE MOST DRAMATIC GOD MESSAGE.

IT WAS JUST PEACE.

JUST PEACE.

>> WHEN WE CAN CELEBRATE WITH YOUR SON AT HIS HEAVENLY BANQUET WHERE ALL ARE FEASTING TOGETHER AND ALL ARE TRULY WELCOME.

>> THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT HAS CHANGED ME AND TRANSFORMED ME THAT EMBOLDENED ME TO MARRY BRITNEY AND LINDSEY HAS BEEN RELATIONSHIP.

AND STORIES.

AND SITTING WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHOWN ME THE CUT MARKS ON THEIR ARMS WHO HAVE SHOWN ME THE SCARS FOR WHERE THEY HAVE ATTEMPTED SUICIDE WHO LEFT ME SPEECHLESS, WHO HAVE TRUSTED ME ENOUGH TO SHARE THEIR PAIN AND DEEP DESIRE FOR COMPANION SHIP AND LOVE.

>> THAT PEACE DID NOT LAST LONG.

36 HOURS AFTER THE MARRIAGE SHE RECEIVED A CALL FROM HER SUPERINTENDENT TELL HER A COMPLAINT WAS FILED.

>> I DID NOT KNOW IF I WOULD HAVE A JOB OR CREDENTIALS.

WHAT WOULD BE LEFT OF RISE.

I DIDN'T KNOW.

>> SHE WAS SUSPENDED FROM HER CON DEGREE GATION FOR A MONTH OUT PAY.

AND PART OF THE PUNISHMENT SHE COULD HAVE NO CONTACT WITH THE CHURCH COMMUNITY AND SHE WAS A TARGET IN THE COMMUNITY.

>> I CALL IT THE SEASON OF PUBLIC SHAMING.

BECAUSE IT'S WHEN IT ALL WENT PUBLIC AND WHILE I RECEIVED INDESCRIBABLY POWERFUL SUPPORT, I RECEIVED SOME PRETTY AWFUL MESSAGES.

>> I DEFINITELY FEEL LIKE AMANDA WAS GONE THE PLACE MADE US STRONGER.

WE ALL LOVED AMANDA.

WE MISSED AMANDA.

I THINK IT BROUGHT RISE CLOSER TOGETHER.

>> BUT THE DEFIANCE BY CLERGY IS CAUSING THE CHURCH TO SEPARATE EVEN MORE.

>> ON A CLERGY FROM THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH PERFORMS A SAME-SEX MARRIAGE I'M BROKEN OVER THAT.

ONE OF THE REASONS WE MADE A COVENANT AND WE TOOK A VOW TO UPHOLD THE DISCIPLINE OF THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH AND IT CLEARLY STATES WE WILL NOT PERFORM THESE CEREMONIES IT BREAKS MY HEART THAT WE CAN ENTER INTO A COVENANT BEFORE GOD AND THE CHURCH AND FAIL TO DO THAT.

>> IN MAY 2014, THE GOOD NEWS MOVEMENT RELEASED A STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF MORE THAN 80 UNITED METHODIST PASTORS AND THEOLOGIANS THAT CALLED FOR A NRIT INTO THE DENOMINATION.

THE STATEMENT ASSERTED QUOTE: WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THE REALITY THAT WE LADY, CLERGY AND THE COUNCIL OF BISHOPS ARE DIVIDED AND WILL REMAIN DIVIDED.

END QUOTE.

>> WHAT I AM AFRAID OF IS THIS: YOU HAVE TWO SIDES WHO HAVE DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS AND HONESTLY, NEITHER SIDE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO COMPROMISE THEIR MOST BASIC PRINCIPLES.

WHAT I HOPE WILL NOT HAPPEN IS THAT WE WILL DECIDE THAT WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT THIS BATTLE FOR THE NEXT, 15, 20 YEARS AND SEE WHO WINS LIKE WE ARE IN A CAGE MATCH GO BACK TO THE WRESTLING WORLD.

AND IN A CAGE MATCH THE FIGHTERS COULD NOT ESCAPE EACH OTHER AND COULD NOT QUIT FIGHTING AND THAT IS WHERE WE FIND OURSELVES.

I DO NOT WANT TO BE IN A CAGE MATCH FOR 20 YEARS.

BECAUSE THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT WIN IN THAT NARRATIVE.

>> TO KEEP THE CHURCH TOGETHER THE WELL RESPECTED REF REPRESENTED ADAM HAMILTON WHO LEADS THE DENOMINATION'S LARGEST CHURCH IN KANSAS, SUGGESTED A WAY FORWARD.

THE PROPOSAL WOULD LET LOCAL CHURCHES DECIDE WHETHER TO HOST SAME SEX UNIONS AND WELCOME GAY CLERGY BUT NEITHER SIDE IS READY TO COMPROMISE.

>> IT IS A FAITHFUL ATTEMPT TO TRY TO KEEP THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH TOGETHER ACROSS PARTICULARLY THE ISSUE OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

BUT I LONG FOR AND WILL CONTINUE TO WORK FOR THE DAY WHEN WE CAN BE MORE POSITIVE AND CLEAR ABOUT WHAT IT IS WE'RE ULTIMATELY WANTING TO SEE HAPPEN IN THE CHURCH.

>> THE WAY FORWARD IS PRESENTED AS A COMPROMISE BUT IT'S NOT A COMPROMISE.

REVEREND HAMILTON, I KNOW HIM, I KNOW HIS HEART, GOOD HEART, GREAT PASTOR BUT THE PLAN IS JUST EXTREMELY FLAWED.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S NOT A COMPROMISE.

IT IS AN ARRANGEMENT BY WHICH THE PROGRESSIVES DO ALL THE TAKING AND WE CONVERSATION I HAVE ITS DO ALL THE GIVING.

AND FURTHERMORE, PROGRESSIVES HAVE BEEN MORE CRITICAL OF HIS PLAN.

THEY SAY HIS PLAN ACTS AS IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS THE PROBLEM WHEN THEY SAY NO HOMOPHOBIA IS THE PROBLEM.

AND IT CREATES A TWO-TIERED SYSTEM SOME REFERRED TO IT AS A JIM CROWE SYSTEM.

AND PROGRESSIVES HAVE BEEN UP FRONT EACH IF THIS WERE TO PASS THEY WILL NOT STOP THERE.

THEY WILL NOT COMPROMISE.

>> ANOTHER SUGGESTION TO KEEP THE CHURCH FROM SPLITTING IS CALLED A THIRD WAY.

THE CONNECTION TABLE AN OFFICIAL BODY PROPOSED REMOVING THE HOAX SEXUALITY LANGUAGE FROM THE BOOK OF DISCIPLINE AND RECOGNIZING THE CHANGE-UP HAS BEEN AGAINST IT.

AND REMOVES ANY PUPPISHMENT FOR BEING A PRACTICING GAY CLERGY OR PERFORMING SAME SEX WEDDING CEREMONIES THE PROPOSAL WILL BE VOTED ON IN 2016.

[♪♪♪] SOME SAY THE GLOBAL NATURE OF THE CHURCH PARTICULARLY IT GROWTH IN AFRICA WHERE HOME SEXUAL IS TABOO IS THE MAJOR HURDLE FOR THOSE HOPING TO CHANGE CHURCH POLICY IN 2016.

TRADITIONALISTS DISAGREE.

>> WHAT HAS BEEN TROUBLING TO ME IS IN THE UNITED STATES WE HAVE HAD PASTORS WHO HAVE DISOBEYED THEIR COVENANT THAT THEY HAVE ENTERED INTO AND IN A WAY DISENFRANCHISED THE VOICE OF OUR GLOBAL BODY.

OUR AFRICAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS WE ALL SHARE IN A VOICE.

WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAID SUPERSEDES THE CULTURE WE ARE LIVING IN AND THE GENERATION WE ARE WE ARE LIVING IN WHAT IS THE TRUTH OF CHRIST THAT TRANSENDS THAT?

AND THAT IS THE VOICE OF OUR GLOBAL CHURCH.

>> IF THE CHURCH DOES DECIDE TO SPLIT, THE DIVISION OF IT FINANCES COULD TAKE YEARS TO MOVE THROUGH THE COURTS.

SMALLER CONGREGATIONS COULD BE LEFT WITHOUT CHURCH BUILDINGS.

>> NOW YOU ARE GETTING DOWN TO THE WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD IN A LOT OF THE CASES.

IN TERMS OF BUILDINGS AND MONEY, THE UNITED METHODIST CONNECT SHOP OWNS WE HOLD THE BUILDING IN TRUST FOR THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH.

SO WHATEVER STRUCTURAL CHANGES HAPPEN WITHIN THE DENOMINATION Mr. AFFECT CONGREGATIONS.

>> WHY DO YOU STAY WITH THE CHURCH?

WHY WOULDN'T YOU GO TO A CHURCH THAT IS THE HEADLIGHTS?

>> I STAY IN THE CHURCH BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT CAN BE THE HEADLIGHTS AND OUGHT TO BE THE HEAD LIGHTS AND AS THE BODY OF CHRIST IT SHOULD BE SHOWING THE WORLD BEARING WITNESS TO THE WORLD THAT WHAT JUSTICE LOOKS LIKE, WHAT LIBERATION LOOKS LIKE AND WHAT LOVE LOOKS LIKE.

>> I LOVE THE GIFTS THAT THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH BRINGS TO THE WORLD.

IT SHAPED ME, AND FORMED ME AND A PART OF WHO I AM THAT TO JUST ABANDON THAT TO THOSE WHO WOULD TRY TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT AND TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM EXPERIENCING THIS WAY OF BEING CHRISTIAN AND A DISCIPLE OF JESUS I AM NOT OK WITH THAT.

>> MANY GAY MEMBERS FEEL THE BEST WAY TO CHANGE THE CHURCH IS TO STAY AND BE RECOGNIZED.

>> I WAS JUST SITTING AT HOME SORT OF LISTENING TO MY THOUGHTS AND ALLOWING GOD TO SPEAK TO ME.

MAYBE.

AND IT JUST THE LIGHT BULB WENT OFF AND IT WAS LIKE WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU MAKE ME THIS WAY AND LABEL ME A SINNER IMMEDIATELY?

I DO NOT THINK THAT IS WHAT HE INTENDED.

I WILL STAY IN THE FIGHT.

AND IF STAYING IN THE FIGHT MEANS THAT I JUST COME TO CHURCH.

>> NEITHER SIDE SAYS IT WANTS THE CHURCH TO SPLIT AND IN A CHURCH THAT HAS BEEN THE SPIRITUAL HOME TO GEORGE BUSH AND ON THE OTHER, HILLARY CLINTON, MANY SAY THEY CANNOT SEE WHY THERE CANNOT PEE A SOLUTION TO THE ISSUE.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN I HAVE GREAT, GREAT HOPE AND EXCITEMENT ABOUT IT AND DAYS WHEN I DON'T.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE WE ARE GOING TO BE.

BUT I KNOW GOD IS IN CONTROL AND GOD WILL BE THE ONE WHO DECIDES OUR FUTURE FOR US IF WE ARE WILLING TO HUMBLE OURSELVES BEFORE HIM.

[♪♪♪] >> THE SPLIT, IF IT HAPPENS, WILL ROCK THE CHURCH TO ITS STONE FOUNDATION.

BUT THERE IS A VIEW THAT SPLITTING MAY JUST BE A FORMALITY SINCE THE TWO SIDES ARE ALREADY DIVIDED.

THEY SEE THE KAZ UM OF EMBLIMATIC OF THE FACT THAT LGBTQ RIGHTS IN CHURCH AND SOCIETY ARE NOT A DONE DEAL DESPITE THE SUPREME COURT'S LANDMARK DECISION ON MARRIAGE EQUALITY GIVING SAME SEX COUPLES THE DIGNITY IN THE EYES OF THE LAW.

[♪♪♪] [♪♪♪] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

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