CARPENTER FOUNDATION AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.
THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY, NATIONAL OUTRAGE PROMPTS CHANGES TO RELIGIOUS FREEDOM BILLS IN INDIANA AND ARKANSAS AND THE PAY GAP MAY START IN FAMILY HOUSEHOLDS.
BEHIND THE HEADLINES PLUS SIZE MODELS TAKE CENTER STAGE.
[♪♪♪] >> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO THE CONTRARY, A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.
UP FIRST, RELIGIOUS RIGHTS DEBATE.
AFTER COMING UNDER CRITICISM FOR PASSING A SO-CALLED RELIGIOUS LIBERTY LAW, THE INDIANA REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP MODIFIED THE BILL.
AS ORIGINALLY PASS TO DO WOULD HAVE ALLOWED PEOPLE AND BUSINESSES TO IGNORE LAWS THEY BELIEVE WOULD INFRINGE ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTIES.
BOTH CONSERVATIVES AND LGBT ACTIVISTS WOULD HAVE BEEN USED TO DENY SERVICES TO LESBIAN AND GAY PEOPLE.
THE AMENDED LAW RULES THIS OUT.
MEANWHILE, ARKANSAS GOVERNOR HUTCHISON BACKTRACKED ON HIS PROMISE TO SIGN A BILL SIMILAR TO INDIANA'S SAYING HE WANTED A RELIGIOUS LIBERTY BILL THAT HAS THE QUOTE RIGHT BALANCE.
>> THERE WAS SUCH A TREMENDOUS OUTCRY FROM INDIVIDUALS WITHIN THE STATES FROM BUSINESSES TO WELL-KNOWN PERSONALITIES AROUND THE NATION, POLITICIANS, CELEBRITIES, THAT IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT ARKANSAS AND INDIANA GOVERNORS WOULD DECIDE THAT THIS LAW WAS NOT RIGHT FOR THEIR COMMUNITIES.
>> INDIANA THIS WEEK, ALSO BECAME THE FIRST STATE EVER TO CHARGE CONVICT, AND SENTENCE A WOMAN TO 20 YEARS IN PRISON ON A SO-CALLED FETUS CHARGE.
33-YEAR-OLD PURVI PATEL SAYS HER CRIME WAS HAVING A MISCARRIAGE.
REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ACTIVISTS ARE OUTRAGED.
UNLIKE THE OVERWHELMING RESPONSE AGAINST THE LAW THAT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVES TO DISCRIMINATE THERE HAS BEEN NO SIMILAR RESPONSE TO SENTENCING A WOMAN TO PRISS ESPECIALLY FOR HAVING A MISCARRIAGE.
MADE A CRIME BASED ON RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
WHAT IS IT CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON THAT THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY IS MORE SUCCESSFUL FIGHTING BACK AGAINST RELIGIOUS LIBERTY LAWS THAT WOULD HINDER THEIR RIGHTS THAN THE REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS COMMUNITY HAS BEEN?
>> BONNIE, THE HISTORY OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION MAKES AMERICANS LESS ACCEPTING OF STATUTES OR ACTIONS THAT DELIBERATELY TARGET A GROUP PARTICULARLY WHEN THAT GROUP HAPPENS TO BE THE BEST ORGANIZED MINORITY GROUP IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY.
>> I WOULD ADD THAT THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY CAME OUT IN FORCE.
THE LBGTQ COMMUNITY HAS BEEN STRONGLY ALIGNED WITH BUSINESS AND OVERWHELMINGLY YOUNG PEOPLE ARE BEHIND THE GAY COMMUNITY IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY.
>> I THINK THE DEMOGRAPHICS ARE BEING AMERICANS BECAUSE YOUNG PEOPLE DO NOT SEE THE POINT OF THIS DISCRIMINATION AND IT TURNS OUT WHICH IS SO INTERESTING THAT THE RIGHT HAS DISCOVERED EVEN ON THE RIGHT THERE ARE ALL REPUBLICANS EVEN IN PLACES LIKE INDIANA AND WHO ARE RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVES WHOSE LOVED ONES AND FRIENDS ARE GAYS AND LEZZIANS.
INTERESTING MOVEMENT.
>> I THINK THEY ARE BETTER ORGANIZED.
ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS THEY DID IN THIS INSTANCE WAS GET THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY INVOLVED GET SOCIAL MEDIA INVOLVED.
NO LONGER ARE STATE AND LOCAL ISSUES JUST STATE ISSUES THEY ARE NATIONAL ISSUES.
>> AND LGBTQ ARE BETTER ORGANIZED THAN WOMEN?
CLEARLY THERE ARE LOTS OF WOMEN WHO ARE ANTIABORTION.
WE KNOW THAT.
WHEREAS THERE FEW LBGTQ WHO ARE NOT FOR EQUAL RIGHTS.
>> THERE IS NO OTHER.
WHEN YOU ARE AGAINST AN LGBTQ COMMUNITY BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY THAT IS AN OUT RIGHT ACT OF DISCRIMINATION.
AMERICANS RECOGNIZE THAT.
THEY KNOW THAT.
THEY HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF THAT.
>> HERE THE CONSERVATIVES PIT OR POSE THE WOMAN AGAINST AN ACTUAL PERSON IN THEIR VIEW THE FETUS.
THAT IS NOT THE CASE WITH THE LBGT COMMUNITY THERE IS NO OTHER THERE YOU ARE AGAINST THEM BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE.
THAT MAKES IT DIFFERENT OR AT LEAST IT IS POSTED AS DIFFERENT.
AND IT HAS A DIFFERENT EFFECT UPON AMERICANS.
ALTHOUGH MOST AMERICANS THINK A WOMAN SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE IT BREAKS DOWN AS TO HOW, WHEN, WHERE AND THE LIKE.
>> THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY WAS NOT ABLE TO MAKE A CLEAR DISTINCTION SUCH AS DISCRIMINATION BEING FIRED FROM A JOB OF BEING GAY AND THE RELIGIOUS CONVICTION OF A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER THAT DID NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE ADDRESSING THE GAY MARRIAGE AND WERE NOT ABLE TO MAKE THE CASE.
>> I ALSO HAVE TO WONDER THE WOMAN PURVI PATEL OBVIOUSLY AN INDIAN-AMERICAN DID THAT PLAY?
TO ME, IT SEEMED THE FIRST TIME THAT A WOMAN IS SENTENCED TO 20 YEARS IN JAIL FOR HAVING A MISCARRIAGE?
WHETHER SHE HID IT IT OR NOT, TRIED TO HIDE IT FROM AUTHORITIES?
THIS IS A CRIME THAT RELIGIOUS ACTIVISTS BECAUSE THE 'TY ABORTION WAR IS RELIGIOUSLY DRIVEN THINK IT IS OK TO PUT A WOMAN BEHIND BARS FOR?
AND THERE IS NO OUTRAGE?
>> IT IS AN OUTRAGE AND THE REASON WE HEARD MORE ABOUT THE OTHER ISSUE IS BECAUSE THE N.A.A.C.P.ES ARE -- NGOS ARE HAPPENING AND NCAA TOOK A STRONG STAND AND SPORTS TEAMS SAID WE DON'T WANT TO BE BEHIND THE TIMES AND ASSOCIATED WITH THIS IT'S BAD.
SO IT BLEW UP IN THE FACE OF THE INDIANA LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR BECAUSE OF THE TIMING PARTLY AND BECAUSE OF THE FORCE OF THOSE BUSINESS INTERESTS AND SPORTS TEAMS.
I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THE ABORTION LAWS.
PLANNED PARENTHOOD IS ORGANIZED AND THE SAME PEOPLE FOR GAY RIGHTS ARE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND IT HAS TO DO WITH PEOPLE'S INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT CAN STEP IN.
>> BUT THERE IS AS I MENTIONED TO THE CONGRESSWOMAN THERE IS THE FACT THERE ARE PLENTY OF WOMEN, I DON'T KNOW THE -- I HAVE NOT SEEN RECENT POLLS TO KNOW THE DIVISION BUT A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE WOMEN ARE ANTIABORTION.
YOU SEE NO GAY PEOPLE STANDING UP AND SAYING IT'S RIGHT TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST GAY PEOPLE.
>> JUST AS MANY CONSERVATIVES ARE NOT THEMSELVES COMFORTABLE WITH GAY MARRIAGE THE ISSUE IS WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DECIDE FOR OTHER PEOPLE AND THAT IS THE SAME THING WITH REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.
YOU MAYBE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE STORY OF THIS POOR WOMAN AND HOW IT UNFOLDED BUT THE QUESTION IS WHO DECIDES WHO STEPS IN AND SAY YOU ARE GOING TO PRISON?
AND THIS IS A LAW THAT WAS DISTORTED.
ITS INTENT WAS TO GO AFTER ILLEGAL ABORTION PROVIDERS AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CASES.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY IT'S BEEN USED AGAINST A PREGNANT WOMAN AND THAT IS NOT THE INTENT.
>> THE FIRST TIME IT'S BEEN USED SUCCESSFULLY.
THERE ARE OTHER THAT COME TO FRUITION.
THERE ARE OTHER PROSECUTIONS AND OTHER STATES THAT ARE PASSING THESE LAWS.
YOUR THOUGHT NISSMENTS I WAS GOING TO CHIME IN AND SAY ABSOLUTELY THE FACT THAT THE NCAA TOURNAMENT WAS BEING HELD WAS A BIG PART THERE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN SO MUCH ATTENTION.
AND THEN YOU HAVE GOVERNORS FROM OTHER STATES BANNING TRAVEL STATE FUNDED TRAVEL THAT WAS ANOTHER ASPECT AND ARKANSAS THE FACT THAT WAL-MART IS LOCATED IN ARKANSAS IT BECOMES A PROBLEM FOR WAL-MART IF IT LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE DISCRIMINATORY TO THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T WANT TO SHOP THERE AND WORK THERE.
THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS WELL FUNDED AND GIVES A LOT OF MONEY AS WELL TO ORGANIZATIONS.
>> TRACE THIS BACK TO SAME-SEX MARRIAGE TOO.
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER WHERE THIS REALLY STARTS.
AND YOU HAVE A SUPREME COURT THAT HAS ALLOWED 37 STATES AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA TO GO AHEAD AND INDEED SAY SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IS ALL RIGHT AND WE THINK THEY ARE GOING TO FIND IT CONSTITUTIONAL.
IF THAT IS THE CASE WHERE DOES IT LEAVE THE FOLKS OUT HERE?
I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST.
I THINK THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED GIVEN HOW EXTREME THAT LAW IS.
THE LAW THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT WAS PASSED AND CAME FROM TWO VERY LIBERAL DEMOCRATS.
AND THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT STATE ACTIONS.
WHICH LAW?
>> THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
THE RESTORATION ACT.
THE INDIANA LAW IS NOT ABOUT STATE ACTION.
IT ALLOWS A CORPORATION'S BUSINESSES AS WELL TO SUE MEANING IT IS GIVING PERMISSION TO THE FLORISTS AND THE BAKERIES NOT TO SERVE GAY PEOPLE.
>> AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FEDERAL AND THE INDIANA LAW, THE INDIANA LAW DESCRIBES PERSONS AS BEING LC'S, CORPORATIONS, IN OTHER WORDS CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE IN THE INDIANA LAW NOT IN THE FEDERAL LAW.
AND SO IT'S THE REVERSE OF GIVING RELIGIOUS MINORITIES INDIVIDUAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IT'S GIVING PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO SERVE RELIGIOUS MINORITIES BUSINESSES AND EMPLOYERS THE RIGHT TO DISCRIMINATE AND CALLING THAT A FREEDOM FOR A BUSINESS.
>> IS THERE A PAGE EITHER THAT THE WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS MOVEMENT SHOULD TAKE FROM THE LBGTQ QMENT EQUALITY MOVEMENT AND USE TO TRY TO FIGHT THE LAWS?
OR SHOULD THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT BE LOOKING AT ITS FAILURE IN ITS ATTEMPTS TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST GAYS AND USE THAT TO -- >> MUCH TOUGHER.
BECAUSE AS WE POINTED OUT, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH THIS WAS A COMMERCE ISSUE IT WAS A BAKERY THAT DID NOT WANT TO SERVE A SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IT WAS A FLORIST.
SO IT'S ALMOST EASIER TO ATTACK ON A COMMERCE BASIS.
EVEN THOUGH WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DISCRIMINATING ISSUE.
THERE WILL REMAIN THE RELIGIOUS ORIENTATION.
>> THE WORD IS PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION.
PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS DON'T HAVE TO SERVE EVERYBODY.
WE ARE BACK TO WHERE WE WERE IN JIM CROWE.
>> AND A STATE NEEDS TO BE BETTER PREPARED THAN INDIANA WAS.
THAT IS A PROBLEM.
MIKE PENCE WAS NOT PREPARED FOR THE OUTREACH AND HUTCHISON IN ARKANSAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED IN INDIANA HE HANDLED IT BETTER.
SO I THINK THAT RELIGIOUS GROUPS SHOULD LOOK TO THIS FOR AN EXAMPLE OF WHATNOT TO DO.
>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.
FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @BONNIEERBE @BONNIEERBE.
FROM LBGT RIGHTS TO PAY EQUITY.
>> HOW EARLY DOES THE GENDER PAY GAP START?
EARLY ACCORDING TO A STUDY THAT FOUND GIRLS BETWEEN 6-17 ARE ASSIGNED MORE HOUSEHOLD CHORES THAN BOYS.
FOR EVERY HOUR OF WORK GIRLS DO, BOYS DO 43-46 MINUTES.
GIRLS ARE ALSO LESS LIKELY TO GET ALLOWANCES FOR THEIR WORK.
WHEN GIRLS GET PAID FOR CHORES THEY ARE PAID LESS.
MALE BABYSITTERS GET 50 CENTS MORE PER HOUR THAN FEMALE BABYSITTERS.
THOUGH THE CHORES ARE SIMILAR WITHIN THE HOUSEHOLD BOYS PARTICIPATE IN MORE OUTSIDE CHORES.
YEARS AND YEARS AGO, WE DID A STORY 10, 15 YEARS AGO, ON PARENTS ENCOURAGING BOYS MORE TO PLAY WITH COMPUTERS, TO GO INTO STEM-RELATED FIELDS.
BUT THAT WAS AT LEAST A DECADE AGO MAYBE AS MUCH AS TWO DECADES AGO.
NOW, WE ARE TALKING THE PARENTS ARE STILL DISCRIMINATING AGAINST THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS IN TERMS OF HOUSEHOLD CHORES AND ALLOWANCES?
HOW IS THAT HAPPENING?
>> I THINK WE ALL RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE SUBTLE DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY THAT BOYS AND GIRLS ARE TREATED.
WE ALL EXPERIENCE THAT IN OUR OWN LIVES.
AND PARENTS INADVERTENTLY PASS ON THE STEREOTYPES.
AND IT'S INTERESTING THE GIRLS ARE EXPECTED TO DO HOUSEWORK AS PART OF THEIR CONTRIBUTION TO THE FAMILY.
AND THE BOYS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE EXPECTED TO BE DOING OTHER STUFF AND THE MOMS ARE PICKING UP THE SLACK.
THAT IS UTTERLY FAMILIAR TO MOST PEOPLE.
I HAVE THREE GIRLS.
SO I DON'T HAVE THE -- >> THE CHANCE TO DISCRIMINATE.
>> WE ALL HAVE TO PITCH IN.
BUT I WILL TELL YOU I SPEND A LOT OF TIME AT HOME WITH MY KIDS WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG AND I WORK FULL-TIME AND BY NECESSITY, EVERYBODY HAS TO PITCH IN.
AND NOBODY OWNS THAT DOMESTIC SPHERE ENTIRELY.
AND IN SOME WAYS THAT IS THE DRIVER OF REQUALITY.
WE ALL HAVE TO PITCH IN AND THE KIDS ARE EXPECTED TO PITCH IN.
>> WHEN I WAS YOUNGER I WAS THANKFUL I WAS NOT ASKED TO DO A LOT OF THE CHORES OUTSIDE.
I WOULDN'T WANT MY PARENTS TO MAKE ME CHOP WOOD WITH MY DAD.
MY BROTHER HAD THAT TASK.
I WOULD PREFER TO BE INSIDE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S BEING DISCRIMINATORY AND SAYING WOMEN HAVE TO DO THE DISHES, I THINK THERE ARE REAL PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN AND LIKE I COULD DO MY BROTHER WAS BETTER SUITED TO CHOP WOOD THAN I WAS.
>> LET'S TAKE THE ELEMENT OF INSIDE OUTSIDE OUT OF IT.
HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT BOYS DO 43-46 MINUTES WORTH OF WHATEVER CHORE IT IS VERSUS EVERY HOUR DAUGHTERS DO?
>> I GUESS AGAIN ONLY BEING ABLE TO USE MY OWN EXPERIENCE MY LITTLE BROTHER AND I BOTH WERE REQUIRED TO GET OUR CHORES BEFORE WE COULD PLAY.
PITCHING IN.
ALL OF THE CHORES TO BE DONE.
HE SIT ON HIS BUTT AND I WOULD DO ALL THE CHORES BECAUSE I WANTED TO PLAY.
SO I PROBABLY DID DO MORE CHORES AND I HOPE HE IS WATCHING.
>> TAKING OUT THE TRASH AND HELPING YOUR DAD RECONSTRUCT THE GARAGE FOR MY LITTLE BROTHER AND THE LIKE WAS VIEWED AS MORE STRENGTH ROUSE WORK.
MY FATHER WOULD NOT ALLOW MY BROTHERS HELP WITH WASHING THE DISHES AND HELP COOK.
SO THOSE WERE VIEWED AS SOFTER CHORES.
I DID NOT REALIZE THERE WAS PAID DISCRIMINATION I HAVE TO SAY WHEN I WAS YOUNG.
I WOULD HAVE PROTESTED WILDLY.
AND WE HAVE TO RAISE THIS ISSUE WITH THE CHILDREN.
>> WE CAN GET THE YOUNGER FOR THE MOMENT I THINK THIS IS SERIOUS.
IT REALLY TELLS US THAT GENDER ROLES GET LOCKED IN AT A VERY EARLY AGE AND WE DON'T EVEN REALIZE IT.
AND YOU NOTICE THAT THEY DID NOT SAY THEY FOUND THAT MORE WITH LIBERAL OR CONSERVATIVE HOUSEHOLDS.
THEY JUST FOUND IT WAS USE BIG TO US.
IT IS -- UBIQUITOUS.
IT IS SO DEEPLY CULTURAL THAT TO ROOT IT OUT.
>> THAT IS A FASCINATING POINT.
>> AND STUDIES SHOW IF THEY TELL ADULTS THAT BABIES ARE BOYS OR GIRLS THE ADULTS RESPOND DIFFERENTLY TO THE BABIES.
THEY PROJECT A TOUGHNESS OR THEY HOLD THE BOYS LESS AND TALK TO THEM LESS AND DO NOT COMFORT THEM AS THEY CRY AS MUCH.
MUCH MORE MIRRORS WITH FACIAL EXPRESSIONS AND SYMPATHIZING WITH GIRLS.
IT IS A PROFOUND CULTURAL DIFFERENCE AND WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE IT TO MAKE THE CHANGES.
>> AND NOT TO TARGET WOMEN BUT GETTING BACK TO THE DISCUSSION IN THE PRIOR SEGMENT ABOUT LBGTQ VERSUS WOMEN, I THINK THAT IF WOMEN WHO WANT TO MOVE FORWARD IN THIS COUNTRY WHO WANT EQUALITY IN THE WORKPLACE AND SOCIEITALLY, HAVE TO ADMIT THERE ARE WOMEN WHO DON'T.
THERE ARE WOMEN WHO WANT TO -- LOTS OF WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT TO -- WHO WANT TO STAY HOME AND BE FINANCIALLY SUPPORTED BY A MAN.
AND THERE HAS TO BE A WAY TO FIGURE OUT HOW THAT DOESN'T AFFECT THE WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT THAT MORE TRADITIONAL ROLE.
>> THAT IS A HOPELESS CASE TO MAKE AND WE HAVE TO SAY LOOK THERE IS A BASELINE OF EQUAL TREATMENT AND JUSTICE BEFORE IT IS AFTER ALL 2015 WANTING TO BE FINANCIALLY SUPPORTED BY A MAN IS NOT A LEGITIMATE ACT BIGS IN LIFE.
>> THERE ARE PLENTY OF WOMEN THAT WANT THAT.
[ALL TALKING AT ONCE] A POINT OF CHOICE.
>> WHEN DOES THIS HAPPEN?
WHEN DOES THIS CHOICE BEGIN?
THAT IS YOUR NOTION.
THAT SOME WOMEN BECAUSE ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND BY THE WAY IT'S IT INTERESTING THAT C.E.O.S ARE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE STAY AT HOME WIVES.
WHEN DID ALL THAT BEGIN?
AND WHAT I AM SAYING, IS THAT IT BEGINS SO EARLY AND SO UNCONSCIOUSLY, THAT YOU CANNOT ASSUME THAT A GIRL IS MAKING THESE CHOICES IS MAKING THESE CHOICES AT 18 OR 25, THESE CHOICES BEGIN TO GET MADE IN THE CRADLE IT WOULD APPEAR AND THAT PUTS A HEAVY BURDEN ON MOTHERS AND FATHERS ON HOW THEY RAISE THEIR GIRLS AND BOYS.
>> AND WHEN THE DECK IS STACKED YOU ARE NOT MAKING A CHOICE YOU ARE RESPONDING TO THE CONDITIONS YOU WERE RAISED IN.
PEOPLE WERE RESPONDING TO CHOICES THEY WOULD HAVE A FULFILLING LIFE AND CAREER.
>> AND BECAUSE OF THE CHORES ONE WAS DESCRIBED AS A CHILD THAT PRESUMES WHAT THEY WILL DO IN THEIR LIFE -- >> I THINK SHE IS NOT -- I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT.
BECAUSE I DO -- I THINK THERE ARE WOMEN WHO WOULD TELL YOU I WANT TO STAY HOME FULL-TIME WITH MY KIDS.
I DON'T HAVE CAREER AMBITIONS.
>> I HEAR THAT A LOT.
>> I STAYED HOME WITH MY KIDS AND I LOVED DOING THAT.
YOU SHOULD HAVE THE ABILITY IN SOCIETY WE SHOULD HAVE A SOCIETY THAT PROVIDES ADEQUATE CHILDCARE, FAMILY SUPPORTING WAGES THE CONDITIONS THAT ALLOW PEOPLE NOT TO HAVE THE MAJOR LEAGUE MAKE THE HUGE TRADE OFFS WHERE THEY HAVE TO GIVE UP THEIR CAREER TO HAVE TIME WITH THEIR CHILDREN.
>> AND THE PRESUMPTION OF GIVING UP A CAREER.
MY GRANDMOTHER HAD SEVEN KIDS AND STAYED AT HOME AND COOKED THEIR FOOD AND MADE THEIR CLOTHES AND THAT WAS HER CHOICE.
AND THAT IS SOMEONE ELSE'S CHOICE I RESPECT THAT.
I DON'T THINK IT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CHORES SHE WAS ASSIGNED AS A CHILD.
>> ONE FINAL STATEMENT.
IT IS A CHOICE I RESPECT IT.
BUT WHAT I DON'T RESPECT IS WHEN IT'S USED AGAINST WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT TO MAKE THAT CHOICE.
AND THAT HAPPENS A LOT, TOO.
BEHIND THE HEADLINES PLUS SIZED MODELING.
AMANDA CZERNIAWSKI IS A PROFESSOR AT TEMPLE UNIVERSITY WHO WENT UNDERCOVER AS A PLUZ SIZE MODEL AND SHE SAYS MODELS FELT AT TIMES EMPOWERED AND OTHER TIMES OBJECTIFIED BY THE INDUSTRY.
HER BOOK FASHIONING FAT CHRONICLES HER EXPERIENCES AND REFLECTIONS AS AN UNDERCOVER MODEL.
>> I WAS INTRIGUED BY THE IDEA OF PLUS SIZE MODELS.
THEY DO NOT HAVE THE TYPICAL BODY TYPE EXPECTED WITHIN FASHION.
WHICH GENERALLY PRIVILEGES A THIN BODY TYPE.
I WAS MOTIVATED TO UNDERSTAND HOW DO THEY EXIST IN THIS BUSINESS?
WHERE THIN IS IN.
AND WHAT DO THEY DO TO CHALLENGE BEAUTY STANDARDS THAT RELY UPON A THIN BODY.
>> IN PROFESSOR CZERNIAWSKI WENT UNDERCOVER AS A PLUS SIZE MODEL TO STUDY THE INDUSTRY THROUGH THE LENS OF A SOCIOLOGIST.
OFTEN SEEN AS A COUNTER TO THE FASHION INDUSTRY AND IT'S UNREALISTIC STANDARDS OF BEAUTY, PLUS SIZE MODELING PRESENTS CHALLENGES TO WOMEN AS WELL.
>> THEY ENGAGE IN A VARIETY OF SORTS OF BODY LABORS WHERE THEY ARE DIETING, EXERCISING, CHANGING THEIR BODY TYPES, TO FIT CLIENT NEEDS.
AND AS WITH ALL OF FASHION, THIS CAN CHANGE FROM SEASON TO SEASON.
MAYBE THIS SIZE IS POPULAR ONE SEASON AND IT CAN CHANGE.
AND THEY HAVE TO MODIFY THEIR BODIES.
SOMETIMES THESE MODELS ENGAGE IN STRICT CALORIE RESTRICTION IN ORDER TO DROP A SIZE.
AND SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY HAVE TO RESORT TO BINGE EATING MENNALITY TO -- MENTALITY TO GAIN WEIGHT.
>> THE DEMAND FOR PLUZ SIZE MODELS ARE HIGHER THAN EVER BUT LIKELY TO BE USED FOR LESS FLATTERING PURPOSESSISM WHILE THERE IS A GREATER DIVERSITY OF BODIES, WITHIN THE ENTERTAINMENT FIELD WHETHER IT'S ACTING OR MODELING, IT'S HOW THEY ARE BEING PRESENTED THAT CAN BE SEEN AS QUITE PROBLEMATIC.
ARE THESE BODIES BEING REPRESENTED PARTICULARLY LARGER WOMEN, IN A FEDDISHIZED FETISHIZED WAY?
>> DESPITE THE ISSUES PLUS SIZE MODELING WAS SEEN AS PERSONALLY REWARDING TO MOST OF THE WOMEN CZERNIAWSKI INTERVIEWED.
>> WORKING AS PLUZ SIZED MODEL CAN BE AN EMPOWERING EXPERIENCE AND I UNDERSTAND WHY THE WOMEN DO IT.
BECAUSE, YEAH, IT IS THRILLING TO WALK DOWN THE FASHION RUNWAY AND HAVE PHOTOGRAPHERS TAKING YOUR PICTURE AND EVERYONE CHEERING YOU ON.
AND YOU DO GET THAT BOOST IN CONFIDENCE.
>> BUT CAN PLUZ SIZE MODELS TRULY CHANGE INDUSTRY STANDARDS?
>> THEY DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO SET THE PARAMETERS OF THEIR WORK BECAUSE THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON THE AGENTS TO DIRECT THEIR CAREERS.
>> INSTEAD PLUS SIZE MODELS STARTED THEIR OWN CLOTHING LINES USING ON-LINE BOUTIQUES.
>> PLUS SIZE WOMEN ENTER THE DESIGN BECAUSE BECAUSE THEY WERE FRUSTRATED BY THE LACK OF STYLISH OPTIONS AND OPTIONS THAT FIT THEIR KINDS OF BODIES.
THE ISSUE HERE IS THAT THE LARGER AGENCIES HAVE BETTER RELATIONSHIPS WITH CLIENTS THAN THE SMALLER BOUTIQUE AGENCIES.
SO THERE IS THIS UNEVEN DYNAMIC GOING ON.
>> A VERY UNEVEN DYNAMIC.
AND ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE AMERICAN POPULATION WHERE MORE ADULTS ARE OVERWEIGHT, NOT MAYBE PLUS SIZE BUT OVERWEIGHT THAN THIN, THAN STANDARD MEDICAL SIZE FOR THEIR WEIGHT FOR THEIR HEIGHT HOW MUCH LONGER IS THE AVERAGE MODEL GOING TO BE THE SKINNY PERSON WHO REALLY IS THE MINORITY AMONG WOMEN IN AMERICAN SOCIETY?
>> TO YOUR FIRST POINT, THE AVERAGE SIZE OF THE AMERICAN WOMAN IS SIZE 14.
THE MODELING INDUSTRY WAS BASED ON MANNEQUINS START IN THE 1800'S AND FAST FORWARD TO THE 1900'S THE FIRST MODELING AGENCY WAS CREATED SO THIS WAIVE LIKE MODELING INDUSTRY HAS BEEN BASED ON MANNEQUIN LIKE FIGURES FOR ALMOST 200 YEARS.
>> DO YOU EXPECT THAT TO CONTINUE FOR MUCH LONGER GIVEN THAT WE ARE NOW DEALING WITH A LARGELY MAJORITY OBESE POPULATION VERSUS BACK IN THE 1800'S THAT WAS NOT THE CASE?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND I CRAFT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HEALTHY AT SIZE 12 AND BEING OBESE AND ENCOURAGING UNHEALTHY BEHAVIOR.
I APPLAUD THE PLUS SIZE MODELS SOME DON'T LIKE THE WORD BUT I LIKE THE MORE REALISTIC CRAFTING OF WHAT THE AMERICAN WOMAN LOOKS LIKE AND HIS IS A POSITIVE STEP.
IT PROBABLY WILL NOT BE A MAJOR STEP BECAUSE FASHION WHICH IS A $1.5 TRILLION INDUSTRY IS BASED ON FANTASY.
PART OF THAT WILL ALWAYS STAY IN VOGUE.
>> AND CLOTHES THE MANNEQUIN POINT, CLOTHES HANG OFF OF THE MANNEQUIN.
THEY DON'T HANG OFF OF A PLUS SIZED WOMAN.
AND IT MAY NOT BE THE BEST VENUE TO SHOW HER YOUR CLOTHES OFF.
YOU ARE SHOWING WITH CLOTHES OFF NOT THE FIGURE OFF.
SO IF WE WANT -- I DON'T EXPECT THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALREADY OBESE AND OVERWEIGHT TO INFLUENCE AN INDUSTRY THAT HAS LONG KNOWN HOW THE PUBLIC WANTS TO SEE ITS CLOTHES NOT THE MODELS.
>> I WAS GOING TO SAY I LIKE YOUR POINT ABOUT THE HEALTHY.
IT'S IMPORTANT WHETHER YOU ARE PLUS SIZED OR OTHERWISE TO BE HEALTHY BUT ONE POINT I'M HAPPY TO SEE THERE'S BEEN MORE MINORITY MODELS.
I LIKE TO SEE CLOTHES ON SOMEONE THAT LOOKS LIKE ME.
>> FINAL POINT.
THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION.
FOLLOWING ME ON TWITTER AND FOLLOW ME ON PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.
SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.
FOUNDATION AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.
FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR SEE AN ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.
