02/27/2015 | 25m 38s | Video has closed captioning.
Some To The Contrary Classics: interviews with women who have attained the highest office in their countries. We speak with Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan, Helen Clark of New Zealand, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia, Janet Jagan of Guyana, and Gro Harlem Brundtland of Norway.
Aired: 02/27/15
FOUNDATION AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.
>> COMING UP ON TO THE CONTRARY... >> THE WOMAN HAS TO PROVE HERSELF TO SHOW THAT SHE CAN DO THE SAME WORK AS A MAN.
>> WOMEN WORLD LEADERS.
WE'VE INTERVIEWED SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL WOMEN.
>> PEOPLE SIT UP AND LISTEN WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.
>> I WAS A MAN WHO IS GOING TO SAY I AM A 77-YEAR-OLD GRANDFATHER?
IT IS A GENDER BIAS IT'S NONSENSE.
>> WE'D STRATEGY.
AND A STRATEGY WAS TIED TO WOMEN IN THE FUTURE THERE WILL BE MANY MORE COUNTRIES THAT GIVE WOMEN THE CHANCE AND EMPOWER WOMEN IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN TODAY.
>> WE HEAR FROM WOMEN PRIME MINISTERS AND PRESIDENTS NEXT ON TO THE CONTRARY.
[♪♪♪] HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY.
FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS TO THE CONTRARY HIGHLIGHTED THE VIEWS AND PERSPECTIVES OF HIGH PROFILE AND POWERFUL WOMEN LEADERS.
WE HAVE NOT HAD A FEMALE U.S. PRESIDENT TO INTERVIEW YET BUT I HAVE SAT DOWN WITH WOMEN PRESIDENTS AND PRIME MINISTERS FROM ACROSS THE GLOBE.
THIS WEEK, SOME TO THE CONTRARY CLASSICS.
INTERVIEWS WITH WOMEN WHO ATTAINED THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THEIR COUNTRIES.
AFTER NINE YEARS OF SELF IMPOSED EXILE, BUTTO WAS BACK IN PAKISTAN.
CORRUPTION CHARGES HAD BEEN DROPPED AND SHE WAS THE LEADING OPPOSITION CANDIDATE IN THE UP COMING ELECTION FOR PRIME MINISTER BUT ON A COLD DECEMBER DAY IN 2007 A BOMB EXPLODED AS SHE WAS LEAVING A RALLY.
SHE WAS ASSASSINATED AT THE AGE OF 54.
I HAD THE HONOR OF INTERVIEWING PRIME MINISTER BUTTO IN CHINA AT THE TIME SHE WAS THE PREIMMINENT WOMAN IN THE MALE STRONGHOLD OF INTERNATIONAL POLITICS.
>> ARE THERE WAYS THAT BEING A WOMAN IN YOUR ROLE AS A WORLD LEADER HELPED YOU?
>> I DON'T KNOW THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE BEEN ASKED SUCH A QUESTION.
USUALLY I FIND THAT BEING A WOMAN PLACES GREATER DIFFICULTIES BECAUSE A WOMAN HAS TO PROVE HERSELF TO SHOW THAT SHE CAN DO THE SAME WORK AS A MAN.
OFTEN A WOMAN HAS TO DO MORE TO SHOW THAT SHE IS COMPETENT.
SO I HAVE NOT NOTICED ANY ADVANTAGES SO FAR IN BEING A WOMAN LEADER.
>> HAVE YOU EVER BEEN DISCRIMINATED AGAINST WHEN YOU ARE IN A CROWD OF MEN LEADERS AT THE UNITED NATIONS OR SOME OTHER LARGE GATHERING?
>> I HAVE NOT BEEN DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AT THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE LEVEL OR THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL WHEN WE MEET.
BUT WITHIN THAT ONE PARLIAMENT MY OPPOSITION OFTEN SUBJECTS ME TO VERBAL ABUSE.
AND THE OPPOSITION ALSO SUBJECTS ME TO VERBAL ABUSE IN THE COUNTRY DURING CAMPAIGNS SIMPLY BECAUSE I AM A WOMAN.
SO I FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF VERBAL ABUSE TO DEN GRATE GRADE WOMEN.
>> HOW DO YOU REACT TO IT.
>> I TELL MYSELF IT IS THEY THAT CANNOT CONTROL THEIR ANGER.
AND THEY CAN CRITICIZE ME ON MY POLICY ON KASHMIR IS RIGHT OR WRONG OR POPULATION AND PLANNING IS RIGHT OR WRONG BUT WHEN THEY COME DOWN TO VULGAR LANGUAGE BECAUSE I AM A WOMAN I THINK IT SHOWS THE FRUSTRATION SO I TRY TO DEPATIENT MYSELF FROM WHAT THEY ARE SAYING AND CONVINCE MYSELF THAT IT REFLECTS MORE ON THEM THAN ME.
BUT IT SADDENS ME THAT IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY PEOPLE SHOULD NOT TALK ABOUT ISSUES AND SHOULD START THAT.
>> YOU ARE VERY STRONG ADVOCATE IN THE WORLD FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.
YOUR SPEECH HERE IN BEIJING AND YOUR SPEECH IN CAIRO AT THE U.N. CONFERENCE ON POPULATION AND YET IN THAT SPEECH YOU CAME OUT OPPOSED TO ABORTION.
HOW DO YOU SQUARE THE TWO?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT WHILE THERE ARE FEMINIST ISSUES ON WHICH WOMEN AGREE ACROSS THE BOARD THERE ARE ALSO CERTAIN ISSUES IN WHICH THERE IS A DIVERGENCE OF OPINION BETWEEN THE WEST AND THE EAST.
WE BELIEVE IN FAMILY PLANNING VERY STRONGLY IN THE EAST.
BUT WE DON'T BELIEVE IN ABORTION AS A METHOD OF FAMILY PLANNING.
OF COURSE, ABORTION IS LEGAL IF A WOMAN'S HEALTH IS IN DANGERED.
AND A WOMAN CAN MAKE A CHOICE FOR HERSELF WHAT SHE WISHES TO DO ACCORDING TO THE RELIGIOUS MORALS OR AGAINST IT.
BUT WITHIN THE EAST, WE DO THINK IT IS PREVENTATIVE CONTRACEPTION THAT IS IMPORTANT AND THAT WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE.
>> FROM PAKISTAN TO NEW ZEALAND.
NEW ZEALAND GAVE WOMEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE IN NATIONAL PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS IN 1893.
SOME 27 YEARS BEFORE THE U.S. APPROVED THE 19TH AMENDMENT TO OUR CONSTITUTION WHICH GRANTED WOMEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON A NATIONAL BASIS.
ALTHOUGH WOMEN HAD VOTED IN CERTAIN STATES, WYOMING SINCE 1869 AND UTAH SINCE 1870, NEW ZEALAND WAS THE FIRST NATION STATE IN THE WORLD TO ALLOW WOMEN TO VOTE.
IN 2002 NEW ZEALAND'S TOP THREE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WERE WOMEN.
INCLUDING PRIME MINISTER HELEN CLARK.
IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, PRIME MINISTER CLARK SHARED HER THOUGHTS ON WHY THE UNITED STATES LAGS BEHIND SO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ELECTED WOMEN LEADERS.
>> IN OUR SOCIETIES IT IS A QUESTION OF GETTING SUFFICIENT CRITICAL MASS OF WOMEN IN THE LEGISLATURE AND THE TOP EXECUTIVE POSITIONS FOR THEM TO MOVE TO HAVING A LEADER AT THE VERY TOP THAT SEEMED TO BE A NORMAL THING.
>> DO YOU THINK THE FACT THAT NEW ZEALAND WAS THE FIRST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TO GIVE WOMEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON A NATIONAL SCALE AND YOU DID THAT DECADES BEFORE WE DID IT HERE IN THE U.S. HAS THAT HAD AN IMPACT ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS?
>> I WISH I COULD SAY SO BUT HAVING BEEN THE FIRST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT WOMEN GAINED THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
WE WERE SLOW-MOVING ON.
THERE WAS NO WOMAN IN PARLIAMENT UNTIL THE 193 OWE.
AND WHEN I WENT IN IN 1981, THERE WAS A TOTAL OF 8 MEMBERS OUT OF 90MP'S IN TOTAL.
WE HAVE MADE PROGRESS OVER THE LAST 21 YEARS AND WITH THE COMING OF PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION ALL THE POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE TO WIN THE WOMEN'S VOTE.
PARTIES WHICH WOULD HAVE NEVER CONTEMPLATED BRINGING WOMEN UP THROUGH THE RANKS NOW HAVE TO DO SO IT'S COMPELLING.
>> YOU AND THE TWO TOP LEADNERS NEW ZEALAND ARE WOMEN.
HOW DOES THAT CHANGE THE WAY THAT GOVERNMENT DOES BUSINESS?
>> IT'S CHANGED SINCE 1981 AND I JOKED ABOUT THE THREE FORMS OF RECREATION WHICH WERE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME.
THERE WAS THE BILLIARDS ROOM AND I NEVER LEARNED HOW TO PICK OUT A BILLIARDS QUEUE.
AND THE BAR WHICH USED TO EXERCISE THE MUSCLE AND THE CARD SCHOOLS THAT PLAYED LATE INTO THE NIGHT WITH A LOT OF MOPE BEING BET ON THEM.
THIS WAS NO PLACE FOR A YOUNG WOMAN TO BE.
I SEEN THAT MALE CULTURE LARGELY DISAPPEAR FROM OUR PARLIAMENT AND REPLACED BY PROFESSIONAL, TASK-ORIENTED PEOPLE AND WOMEN LED THE WAY ON THAT.
>> ARE YOU SAYING MEN WANTED TO DRINK AND PLAY AND WOMEN WANT TO GET DOWN TO BUSINESS?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THE WOMEN ARE TASK FOCUSED.
WE ARE ALL BUSY AND WE HAVE OTHER THINGS GOING IN OUR LIVES.
AND WE SET GOALS AND GO AFTER THEM AND WE HAVE BEEN GREAT ROLE MODELS.
HOW DO YOU RELATE TO OTHER COUNTRY LEADERS.
>> QUITE OFTEN -- I WENT TO THE PACIFIC ISLAND FORUM WHERE WE WERE IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC A WOMAN LATER WAS PREMIER THEN AND THERE WERE THREE WOMEN LEADERS BECAUSE THE PHILIPPINES AND INDONESIA CHANGED THEIR PRESIDENTS OUTSIDE THE ELECTORAL CYCLE IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.
I GO TO THE COMMONWEALTH CONFERENCE THERE WERE TWO WOMEN.
ME AND THE PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN, OF BANGLADESH.
AND YOU ARE A LONELY GROUP.
BUT I THINK PEOPLE SIT UP STRAIGHT AND LISTEN WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.
I HAVE NOT FELT DISADVANTAGED BY GENDER.
>> TO LIBERIA'S LEADING LADY.
PRESIDENT ELLEN JOHNSON SIR LEAF WAS THE FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT OF AN AFRICAN COUNTRY ELECTED TO RUN LIBERIA'S GOVERNMENT DURING RENEWAL, CHANGE AND VIOLENCE AND WORK THAT WON HER A NOBLE PEACE PRIZE N2010 WE CAUGHT UP WITH HER IN WASHINGTON D.C. DURING A TOUR PROMOTING HER INITIATIVE TO EDUCATE LIBERIAN GIRLS.
>> WHY GIRLS?
BECAUSE GIRLS IN LIBERIA AND THE AFRICA HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT.
>> LIBERIA'S HISTORY IS ONE OF WAR, DICTATORSHIP AND STRUGGLE FOR DEMOCRACY.
IT'S ALSO ONE OF BIAS AGAINST WOMEN.
EVEN WITH A WOMAN AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF.
LIBERIAN GIRLS ARE STILL LEFT BEHIND.
ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION.
JUST 50% OF LIBERIAN CHILDREN GO TO SCHOOL ONE QUARTER OF THEM ARE GIRLS.
SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE CLASSROOM, TEEN PREGNANCY AND HIGH DROPOUT RATES ALL DEPLETE GIRLS' ATTENDANCE RATES.
>> FOR YEARS FOR THEM TO SURVIVE THEY ARE YOUNG CHILDREN PARTICULARLY GIRLS HAVE BEEN A SOURCE OF INCOME BECAUSE THEY GO ON THE STREETS.
THERE'S MORE HEARTBREAKING THAN TO WALK THE STREETS AND SEE A FIVE-YEAR-OLD OR SIX-YEAR-OLD WITH A HUGE BASKET OR PAN ON THEIR HEADS SELLING FRUITS OR SELLING LITTLE PACKAGES OF WATER.
KIDS WHO SHOULD BE IN SCHOOL.
WE'VE GOT A YOUNG POPULATION.
SOME 40% OF OUR POPULATION LESS THAN 20 YEARS OLD, MANY OF THEM HAVE NOT BEEN TO SCHOOL AND AT THIS STAGE HOW DO WE RESPOND TO THAT?
WE'RE TRYING TO MEET THE CHALLENGES OF IMPROVING INFRASTRUCTURE, WE ARE TRYING TO MEET THE CHALLENGES OF RECONCILIATION COMING FROM WAR AND THE ETHNIC TENSIONS AND RIVALRIES THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THAT.
BUT MOST OF ALL, GETTING OUR YOUNG CHILDREN BACK INTO SCHOOL.
AND GIVING THEM A HOPE AND CONFIDENCE IN THE FUTURE.
>> PROMOTING EDUCATION REFORM IS NOT NEW TO THE PRESIDENT.
DURING HER CAMPAIGN, SHE COMBINED EDUCATION AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS UNDER THE THEME OUR TIME HAS COME.
>> WE HAD A STRATEGY.
AND A STRATEGY WAS TIED TO WOMEN.
MANY PEOPLE MISSED THE FACT THAT THE ORDINARY MARKET WOMEN UNEDUCATED, CAUGHT ON TO THE STRATEGY.
AND CAUGHT ON TO THE IDEA THAT I SIT IN THE SUN, I SIT IN THE RAIN, AND SELL MY GOODS FOR ONE PRIMARY PURPOSE TO EDUCATE MY CHILDREN.
>> AFTER MORE THAN TWO DECADES OF CIVIL WAR, LIBERIA HAS A LOT GOING AGAINST IT.
MANY PLACES LACK ELECTRICITY OR RUNNING WATER.
85% OF WORKERS ARE UNEMPLOYED.
80% ARE ILLITERATE.
YES THE PRESIDENT SAYS SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS WILL BE MADE BY JANUARY 2008.
>> TRANSFORMATION HAS TO BE FELT OUT OF A JOINT EFFORT WE HAVE TO TOUCH THE LIVES OF THESE YOUNG GIRLS AND BOYS.
WE HAVE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR FAMILIES.
BECAUSE IF WE DON'T, THE RECORD ON THAT IS VERY CLEAR IN POOR CONFLICT COUNTRIES IF YOU DON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME ONE TO TWO YEARS CHANCES ARE THE COUNTRY SLIPS BACK INTO CHAOS AND BACK INTO CONFLICT.
>> WITH $37 BILLION IN DEBT LIBERIA WILL NEED OUTSIDE HELP TO MAKE THIS TRANSFORMATION HAPPEN.
NOW AN AMERICAN BORN WOMAN WHO LED A SOUTH AMERICAN COUNTRY.
JANET JAGEN WAS FIRST LADY AND PRIME MINISTER OF GUYANA.
BUT GAME THE FIRST FEMALE SOUTH AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO BE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED.
SHE RESIGNED FROM OFFICE BECAUSE OF HEALTH ISSUES AND DIED AT THE AGE OF 69 IN 2009.
SHE WAS BORN AND RAISED IN CHICAGO AND DID NOT LEAVE THIS COUNTRY UNTIL SHE WAS IN HER MID-20s.
TO THE CONTRARY TRAVELED TO TELL YOU THE STORY OF THIS AMAZING WOMAN LEADER.
>> GUYANA, A SMALL SOUTH AMERICAN COUNTRY POSSESSING ONE OF THE LARGEST TRACKS OF AMAZON JUNGLE AND THE MOST SPECTACULAR WILDLIFE IN THE WORLD BECAUSE IT IS UNSPOILED BY DEVELOPMENT.
LOCATE VENEZUELA AND SURINAME IT'S ROUGHLY THE SIZE OF FLORIDA AND GREAT BRITAIN.
CONTROLLED BY HOLLAND AND GREAT BRITAIN IN COLONIAL TIMES THE PEOPLE ARE A MIXTURE.
JANET MOVED HERE AS A NURSE WITH HER HUSBAND.
HE WAS A DENTIST WHO BECAME INVOLVED IN POLITICSP WORKED TO OVERTHROW BRITISH COLONIAL RULE.
TOGETHER THEY FORMED THE PEOPLE'S PROGRESSIVE PARTY IN THE 1940s AND NOW THE COUNTRY'S DOMINANT PARTY AND MAXIST BUT THE BRITISH OVER THROUGH HIS INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT AND PUT THEM BOTH IN JAIL.
THEY GAINED INDEPENDENCE IN 1966, HE LATER BECAME PRESIDENT.
HE DIED IN MARCH 1997 AND SHE WHO HAD A LONG CAREER IN POLITICS AS A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT AND GENERAL SECRETARY OF HER PARTY RAN FOR AND WON THE SEAT.
PRESIDENT, TELL AMERICAN AUDIENCE HOW YOU CAME TO POWER.
WHAT WAS YOUR PATH TO POWER?
>> HARD WORK.
I'VE BEEN IN THE LABOR MOVEMENT FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.
ALL DURING THE 40s MY HUSBAND AND I WORKED WITH SUGAR WORKERS AND I WAS TRYING TO ORGANIZE DOMESTIC WORKERS IN THE CALLED IN THE BRITISH GUYANA LABOR UNION AND WE WERE MOSTLY INVOLVED IN LABOR.
>> AND YOU WERE BANNED FROM RETURNING TO THE UNITED STATES?
>> THAT CAME IN THE SAME PERIOD.
AFTER WE WERE REMOVED FROM OFFICE IN 1953, THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW ME INTO THE UNITED STATES.
MY FATHER HAD CANCER AND HE WAS ALL RIGHT FOR A WHILE AND THEN IT LOOKED AS THOUGH HE WAS AT THE LAST STAGES.
AND I TRIED VERY HARD TO GO TO THE UNITED STATES.
BUT THEY WOULD NOT GIVE ME A VISA.
>> YOU GOT YOUR START WORKING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN GUYANA.
WORKING FOR DOMESTIC RIGHTS.
DO YOU -- FIRST OF ALL WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR WOMEN'S RIGHT?
>> ISSUES LIKE WATER SUPPLIES, EVERYTIME I OPEN A NEW WATER SUPPLY FOR A VILLAGE OR AN AREA, I TELL THEM THIS IS ONE OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS.
BECAUSE WHEN WOMEN HAVE TO SPEND THREE OR FOUR HOURS A DAY FETCHING WATER FOR EVERYTHING THEY DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THEMSELVES OR THEIR OWN ADVANCEMENT.
>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WOMEN COUNTRY LEADERS SUCH AS YOURSELF HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO HELP RAISE THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN THEIR COUNTRY?
>> OF COURSE.
THAT'S SO ELEMENTARY YOU KNOW THAT IS PART OF WHAT WE ARE DOING.
>> AS A COUNTRY LEADER HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED DISCRIMINATION FROM IN A WORLD FULL OF MAINLY MALE COUNTRY LEADERS?
>> I REMEMBER AFTER THE ELECTIONS THEY WERE LEVELING ME OFF WITH OTHER WIDOWS WHO ASSUMED OFFICE AFTER THEIR HUSBAND'S DEATH.
BUT I SAID I'M NOT REALLY IN THAT CATEGORY BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN THERE FROM DAY ONE IN THE STREETS AND THE JAIL EVERYWHERE ALL OVER THE PLACE.
>> THE "WASHINGTON POST" RAN A LONG PIECE BY YOUR COUSIN SHE GOT ANNOYED BECAUSE SHE SAW A MEDIA REPORT THAT DESCRIBED YOU AS A 77-YEAR-OLD GRANDMOTHER AS A FORMER MEDIA MEMBER WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?
>> IF I WAS A MAN WHO IS GOING TO SAY I AM A 77-YEAR-OLD GRANDFATHER?
IT'S GENDER BIAS.
IT'S NONSENSE.
WHY CAN'T THEY RECOGNIZE ME FOR WHAT I AM.
YOU CAN INCLUDE THE FACT THAT I AM A GRANDMOTHER BUT NOTHING TO HIDE.
THEY EMPHASIZED IT.
I DID NOT LIKE IT I THOUGHT IT WAS CHEAP JOURNALISM TO MAKE ME SOMETHING OF AN ODDITY THIS TRANSPLANTED WHITE 77-YEAR-OLD GRANDMOTHER IS PRESIDENT.
AND THAT IS NOT THE STORY.
I'M NOT PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF THAT.
I'M PRESIDENT BECAUSE FOR 50 YEARS, I SWEATED IT OUT.
I DID THE WORK.
>> HAVE YOU WATCHED HILLARY CLINTON AND THE CRITICISM SHE TOOK FOR TRYING TO BE IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND ALSO WORK WITH HER HUSBAND AT THE SAME TIME?
>> SHE IS DOING WHAT A LOT OF FIRST LADIES ARE DOING NOW.
IT WAS KIND OF OLD-FASHIONED FOR AMERICANS TO BE SO FAR BEHIND THAT THEY ARE GOING TO CRITICIZE THE FIRST LADY FOR CARRYING ON DOING WHAT SHE WANTS TO DO AND SHE WAS DOING GOOD THING.
MAYBE IN THE CARRIBBEAN WE ARE MORE ADVANCED.
WOMEN GO AND CARRY ON OUR OWN LIVES OUR OWN CAREERS WHICHEVER DIRECTION MAY BE IF IT'S BUSINESS OR TEACHING PROFESSION OR JOURNALISM.
>> AN INTERVIEW I FOUND PERSONALLY VERY EYE OPENING.
GROW HARLEM, A PHYSICIAN AND MOTHER WHO SERVED THREE TERMS AS PRIME MINISTER OF NORWAY.
SHE LATER WENT ON TO BECOME DIRECTOR GENERAL OF THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.
I MET PRIME MINISTER HER IN 1994 WHEN SHE WAS A POWERFUL VOICE FOR WOMEN ON THE U.N. CONFERENCE ON POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT IN CAIRO.
IN AN INTERVIEW SHE TOLD US HOW IT FELT TO BE THE ONLY ONE IN A HANDFUL OF WOMEN AT THE PINNACLE OF POWER AND JUST HOW SHE GOT THERE.
>> THERE CAN ALWAYS BEEN PARTLY COINCIDENCE BUT THERE IS ALSO THE FACT THAT MY PART IN THE LABOR PARTY SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS ACTIVELY PURSUING DURING THE 70s WOMEN'S ROLES, WOMEN'S FULL PARTICIPATION IN THE PARTY AND IN THE COUNTRY.
AND AS PART OF THAT, IT WAS A NATURAL THING TO HAVE A VICE-PRESIDENT IN THE PARTY WHICH WAS ME.
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70s.
AND THEN THE NEXT TIME AROUND, I BECAME THE LEADER OF THE PARTY AND PRIME MINISTER AND THIS IS IS A BROAD PROCESS OF MOVING SERIOUSLY WOMEN INTO A FULL PARTICIPATION AT THE SAME LEVEL AS MEN.
>> WE AMERICANS THINK WE ARE ADVANCED WHEN IT COMES TO WOMEN'S ISSUES.
BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU HOW YOU SEE OUR POSITION FROM AN INTERNATIONAL PERSPECTIVE.
>> I HAVE LIVED IN THE UNITED STATES FOR TWO YEARS.
ONCE WHEN I WAS A CHILD.
IN THE FIFTH GRADE OF PRIMARY SCHOOL AND THEN AS 25-YEAR-OLD DOCTOR STUDYING.
AND I HAVE SEEN THE SELF CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE SELF DETERMINATION OF AMERICAN WOMEN IN THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.
AND IT'S TRUE THAT YOUR CULTURE BRINGS FORWARD THE FEELING OF WORTH IN WOMEN.
AND THAT SENSE IT IS TRUE.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THE CARE TAKING OF VALUES AND INTERESTS AROUND A WOMAN'S WORKING RIGHTS HAS NOT BEEN TAKEN CARE OF IN YOUR SOCIETY.
IT'S SO INDIVIDUALISTIC THAT TO BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF CHILDREN AND BE A WORKING MOTHER, YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE THE SOCIAL STRUCTURE THAT MAKES THIS POSSIBLE.
AND TO TAKE ONE EXAMPLE, YOUR LAWS GIVE VERY FEW WEEKS IF AT ALL FOR A PREGNANCY LEAVE.
AND FOR LEAVE AFTER A CHILD IS BORN.
THIS IS A GREAT DIFFICULTY FOR ANY WOMAN IN ANY COUNTRY.
AND IN MY COUNTRY NOW WE HAVE BEEN ABLE BY POLITICAL DEBATE, TO HAVE A LAW THAT GIVES THE RIGHT TO ONE YEAR WHEN YOU HAVE A CHILD.
WITH PAY, 80% OF WHAT IS YOUR NORMAL PAY.
NOW, THIS IS OF COURSE THIS MAKES IT EASIER TO COMBINE THE ROLES OF MOTHER, WIFE, AND SELF FULFILLMENT FOR WOMEN.
>> WE'VE DEBATED THAT ISSUE ON TO THE CONTRARY AND THE CONSERVATIVE RESPONSE IS YES, YOU MAY OFFER THE GREAT BENEFITS BUT YOUR ECONOMY IS STAGNANT AS A RESULT.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> NORWAY HAS A GROWING ECONOMY.
WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HAVE YOU KNOW, LOW INFLATION, LOW INTEREST RATES, GROWTH IN THE ECONOMY.
WE HAVE CONTROL OVER A BLOSSOMING HE ECONOMY SO THIS IS NOT TRUE.
>> ANOTHER RESPONSE IS IF YOU GIVE WOMEN A YEAR OFF WITH 80% PAY NOBODY WILL HIRE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN MEN AS EMPLOYEES.
>> WE HAVE NOW OPENED UP FOR MEN TO TAKE PART OF THAT LEAVE.
GRADUALLY THE WAY WE WILL DO IT IS TO SHARE THAT LEAVE BETWEEN THE PARENTS.
SO THAT YOU CAN IN NO WAY AVOID THE RISK OF HAVING SOMEBODY ON LEAVE EVEN IF YOU HIRE MEN.
>> DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE TO HAVE A WORLD WHERE ALL WOMEN ARE EMPOWERED?
>> I THINK IT WOULD BOTH BE POSSIBLE AND I THINK IN THE FUTURE, THERE WILL BE MANY MORE COUNTRIES THAT GIVE WOMEN THE CHANCE AND EMPOWER WOMEN IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN TODAY.
IN THE WORLD AT LARGE, I THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN.
BECAUSE INVESTMENT IN WOMEN IN FACT IS TODAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN INVESTMENT IN MEN TO TAKE CARE OF OUR FUTURE CHALLENGES.
>> WHY IS IT MORE IMPORTANT?
>> THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE ROLE THAT WOMEN HAVE IN THE FAMILY, IN GIVING BIRTH TO THE NEXT GENERATION, IN EDUCATING THE NEXT GENERATION.
IT MEANS THAT IF WOMEN ARE GIVEN EDUCATION, THERE WILL BE A NATURAL CURBING OF POPULATION GROWTH.
AND WE NEED THAT TO AVOID UNDERMINING THE CARRYING THE CAPACITY OF THE EARTH.
>> THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION.
FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.
AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.
[♪♪♪]NDATION.
FOR A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.
