Moms vs. Police Brutality; Sexual Assault; Bacha Posh

A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY... FIRST, MOTHERS RALLYING AGAINST POLICE SHOOTINGS.

THEN SEXUAL ASSAULT ON AND OFF CAMPUS.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES, GIRLS LIVING AS BOYS A SECRET TRADITION IN AFGHANISTAN.

HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO THE CONTRARY A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, WOMEN AND POLICE REFORM.

MOTHERS OF YOUNG BLACK MEN AND BOYS KILLED BY POLICE GATHERED IN WASHINGTON THIS WEEK AT A CONGRESSIONAL HEARING THEY CALLED FOR AN OVERHAUL OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IT'S PART OF THE CONTINUING RESPONSE TO DECISIONS BY TWO GRAND JURIES THAT REFUSED TO INDICT THE OFFICERS WHO KILLED MICHAEL BROWN AND ERIC GARNER.

THE FERGUSON, MISSOURI AND NEW YORK CASES SHINED A NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT ON POLICE TREATMENT OF BLACKS AND HISPANICS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> I SHOULD NOT HAVE BURIED MY SON.

I NEED AMERICA, AMERICAN CITIZENS TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS.

BECAUSE THE POLICE HAVE TOO POWER.

>> MOTHERS AGAINST POLICE BRUTALITY AND THE NATIONAL CONGRESS OF BLACK WOMEN ORGANIZED THE EVENT.

THEY WANT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS SUBMIT TO RANDOM DRUG TESTING TO WEAR BODY CAMERAS AND REVISE POLICE TRAINING TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS THAT BLACK MEN ARE DANGEROUS CRIMINALS.

>> POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY IS THE ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION AND WE ARE DEMANDING IT NATIONWIDE.

>> DEMONSTRATIONS CONTINUE IN CITIES NATIONWIDE.

SO CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON WILL ALL THE PROTEST ACTIVITY AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT IS GOING ON AROUND THESE KILLINGS LEAD TO SERIOUS POLICE REFORM?

>> BONNIE, THIS ISSUE WHICH HAS BEEN TEEMING BELOW THE SURFACE FOR DECADES HAS NOW FOUND AN OUTLET WITH SOCIAL MEDIA.

IT WILL BE SUSTAINED AND I BELIEVE THERE WILL BE REMEDIES.

>> LOOK WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS WE SHOULD TALK.

I THINK WE ARE HAVING GOOD DIALOGUES.

I THINK YOU WILL SEE REFORMS THAT EVERYBODY DOES AGREE ON.

>> IT'S BEEN A GUT CHECK FOR COMMUNITIES.

IN MY TOWN, POLICE AND N.A.A.C.P.

MET AND ARE EXPLORING THE COMMUNITY POLICING APPROACHES AND CAMERAS ON STREET COPS.

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION, THE REFORM IS NECESSARY BUT WE SHOULD ALSO INCLUDE IN THE DIALOGUE THAT 40% OF BLACK MALES DIE FROM HOMICIDE AND THERE ARE NOT ALL BY POLICE OFFICERS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN TERMS OF POLICE REFORM?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BLACK MALES ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY IN THE SYSTEM OR APPROACHED BY POLICE OFFICERS UNFORTUNATELY BECAUSE OF THE CRIME THE RATE AND THE ISSUES THAT COME ALONG WITH THAT.

MY POINT BEING THAT YES, THIS IS IMPORTANT BUT I THINK THE BIGGER PICTURE IS HOW WE ARE LOSING BLACK MALES OVERALL AND A LOT IS HOMICIDE.

>> THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE AND AN ISSUE SOME OF US WORK ON IT.

WE HAVE A CONGRESSIONAL CAUCUS ON BLACK MEN AND BOYS.

BUT WE SHOULDN'T MAKE THESE THINGS COMMON.

THEY ARE APPLES AND ORANGES.

LAW ENFORCEMENT CARRIES A BADGE AND [INAUDIBLE] SO THEY HAVE A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY WHEN THEY CARRY THAT BADGE.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN OUR OWN COMMUNITY.

WE NEED TO WORK ON THAT AS WELL.

BUT TO CONFUSE THOSE IS TO CONFUSE THIS ISSUE.

LET'S WORK ON THAT ISSUE AND WHEN WE HAVE A SHOW ON THAT ISSUE LET'S DISCUSS THAT ISSUE.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT POLICE STOPS OF MEN AND BOYS IN THE STREET BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.

THAT IS VERY UNAMERICAN.

THERE WAS A TIME MAYBE 50 YEARS AGO WHEN THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AS MUCH OUTRAGE BUT TODAY WHEN WE HAVE DONE SO MUCH IN CIVIL RIGHTS THE NOTION OF RACIAL PROFILING HAS NOT COME TO THE SURFACE AS IT NOW HAS.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND ALL THIS MAKES ME WONDER AND I HOPE IT'S NOT VIEWED IN ANYWAY EXCEPT AS HOW I MEAN IT BUT SHOULD WHITE COPS BE POLICING BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS?

>> THEY SHOULD BE.

>> WHY?

>> AND BLACK COPS SHOULD BE POLICING -- AS A RESULT OF THIS YOU KNOW WHEN I WAS A KID IN WASHINGTON D.C. BLACK COPS COULD DO VERY LITTLE POLICING AND IT HAD TO BE IN BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS.

IN AMERICA, IF YOU GOT A JOB YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT THAT JOB ANYWHERE AND I HOPE WE DO NOT SEE THIS AS A REFLECTION ON OUR POLICE.

WE NEED THE POLICE IN OUR DISTRICTS.

THE CHIEF OF OUR POLICE DISTRICT HERE IS A WHITE WOMAN.

SHE IS BELOVED.

SHE IS ON TWITTER.

SHE IS ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

PEOPLE KNOW THEY CAN CALL HER PERSONALLY.

SHE HAS MADE A CONNECTION TO THE COMMUNITY.

YOU CAN DO THAT REGARDLESS OF YOUR -- >> I SEE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

THERE HAS BEEN COMPLAINT THAT IN FERGUSON THERE WERE NOT MANY AFRICAN-AMERICAN POLICE OFFICERS AND THEY HAVE HAD DIFFICULTY IN RECRUITING THEM AND THE QUESTION ARISES IS THIS IMPERATIVE?

IT IS.

THAT IS THE STRENGTH OF AMERICA DIVERSITY.

CLEARLY, WE WANT TO HAVE A DIVERSE POLICE FORCE.

IF YOU HAVE A POLICE FORCE THAT IS ALL WHITE MEN THAT IS BAD.

IF YOU HAD A POLICE FORCE ALL BLACK MEN OR ALL BLACK WOMEN THAT IS NOT DIVERSITY.

>> BUT THE FACT NATIONWIDE IS THAT P POLICE DEPARTMENTS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO RECRUIT MINORITIES PARTICULARLY AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE NOW ABLE TO GET BETTER PAYING JOBS AND THEY ARE HAVING A REALLY HARD TIME TRYING TO RECRUIT THEM.

>> THIS IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE.

IT'S NOT A NARROW ISSUE.

WHAT YOU SAID IS IMPORTANT.

WHAT YOU SAID IS IMPORTANT.

BUT THERE'S ALSO THINGS LIKE THE OVERCRIMINALLIZATION ISSUE.

MAYBE NOT IN FERGUSON THAT WASN'T THE CASE SO MUCH BUT IN NEW YORK, I MEAN, THIS GUY WAS SELLING CIGARETTES.

AND REALLY WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A SWARM OF COPS?

WE HAVE SO MANY LAWS ON THE BOOKS AND I THINK WE ARE IN AN OVERCRIMINALLIZED SOCIETY THAT PLAYS INTO IT.

AND MY POINT IS THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT IN THIS.

IT'S NOT JUST WHITE-BLACK AND A RACE ISSUE EVEN THOUGH THAT IS A BIG PART OF IT.

THERE IS A LOT GOING ON.

>> I HOPE PEOPLE TAKE THAT POSITION AS WELL.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE MOVE A FOOT NOW TO MAKE POSSESSION OF SMALL AMOUNTS OF MARIJUANA LEGAL BECAUSE WE FOUND THAT THOUGH BLACKS AND WHITES USE MARIJUANA AT THE SAME RATE 90% OF THOSE WHO HAVE ARREST RECORDS ARE BLACKS.

YES, THERE IS OVERCRIMINALLIZATION IN THE SOCIETY AND LOOK WHAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS DOING.

WE HAVE IN PRISON, RAND PAUL SUPPORTED THIS AS WELL, MANY BLACK PEOPLE PARTICULARLY BLACK MEN WHO WERE CONVICTED OF LOW LEVEL DRUG OFFENSES.

>> NONVIOLENT.

>> NONVIOLENT.

MANY OF THOSE ARE BEING RELEASED.

>> AND YOU COULD SEE THIS RACE DIVIDE WITH THIS RECENT PEW STUDY THAT SHOWED 90% OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS AFTER SEEING THE ERIC GARNER VIDEO AND THE GRAND JURY RESPONSE SAID THE GRAND JURY WAS ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

64% OF WHITES WHO SAW THAT GRAND JURY RESPONSE SAID IT WAS CORRECT.

AND I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO REALIZE AS A COUNTRY IS THAT SOME OF US ARE VIEWING ALL OF THIS THROUGH A LENS OF PRIVILEGE AND WE DON'T YOU HAD HOW IT'S VIEWED THROUGH A LENS OF BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.

>> A LENS OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

WHITES HAVE NOT HAD THAT EXPERIENCE.

>> AND IT IS ONE OF PRIVILEGE.

>> AND ALSO THE ISSUE ABOUT HAVING RELATIONSHIPS WITH DELEGATE YOU MENTIONED ABOUT YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND GROWING UP YOU SEE OFFICER SMITH OR JONES WHETHER HE IS BLACK OR WHITE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD.

HE KNEW THE KISSED AND THE PARENTS.

WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BACK TO WHERE THERE CAN BE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

ARE WE GOING TO HAVE ROAD COPS MAKING BAD DECISIONS?

OF COURSE WE ARE.

BUT OVERALL THEY ARE TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING BUT THEY NEED HELP.

>> LET'S GET BACK TO IN THE LIMITED TIME WE HAVE LEFT THE ISSUE OF RECRUITING MINORITIES.

WHAT IS GOING ON AND WHY CAN'T WE GET MORE YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICANS INTO THE POLICE FORCE?

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT.

LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS HEAR BLACKS WANT TO GO TO COLLEGE NOW.

GUESS WHO GETS RECRUITED AS WHITES GET RECRUITED.

THEY ARE NOT WHITES THAT WANT TO GO TO COLLEGE THEY ARE FROM A WORKING CLASS.

WE OUGHT TO LINEUP COMPARABLE GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

THERE IS A DIFFICULTY BECAUSE BLACKS IN THE WORKING CLASS ARE MOST OFTEN VERY OFTEN IN LOW INCOME NEIGHBORHOODS, THEY WILL HAVE A MARIJUANA ARREST, POSSESSION, SMALL AMOUNTS.

AUTOMATICALLY DISQUALIFIES YOU FROM GOING INTO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THEY NEED TO LOOK CLOSELY AT THESE YOUNG MEN AND NOT LOOK AT THE ONES ON THEIR WAY TO COLLEGE AMONG BLACKS MORE THAN THEY LOOK AT THOSE ON THEIR WAY TO COLLEGE AMONG WHITES.

>> IS THAT WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING?

LOOKING FOR COLLEGE EDUCATED?

>> YES.

THEY ARE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WITH CLEAN RECORDS AND RAISED AS MIDDLE CLASS YOUNG BLACK MEN.

>> AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE STANDARDS AND I WOULD SAY TO YOUNG FOLKS BLACK, WHITE, MALE AND FEMALE IT MATTERS WHAT YOU DO.

IF YOU PUT YOURSELF IN BAD SITUATIONS BAD THINGS HAPPEN.

MAYBE THINGS SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED THAT YOU DID NOT DEBUT YOU PUT YOURSELF IN A DANGEROUS SPOT.

ON THE OTHER SIDE THERE'S GOOD REFORMS OUT THERE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH.

WHETHER IT'S THE CAMERAS ON COPS A NUMBER OF THINGS LET'S NOT HAVE TO HAVE EVERYTHING DONE BEFORE WE CAN START MAKING SERIOUS STEPS.

WE AGREE ON THAT LET'S MOVE ON IT.

>> AND IT CAN COME FROM THE COMMUNITY.

>> THAT IS RIGHT.

>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

FOLLOWING ME ON TWITTER @BONNIEERBE @BONNIEERBE.

FROM DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST POLICE SHOOTINGS TO COLLEGE AGE SEXUAL ASSAULT.

80% OF SEXUAL ASSAULTS AGAINST COLLEGE STUDENTS ARE NEVER REPORTED.

THAT ACCORDING TO A NEW JUSTICE DEPARTMENT STUDY.

RESEARCHERS EXAMINED 18 YEARS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND RAPE DATA COMPARING FEMALE STUDENTS WITH NONSTUDENTS.

THE REPORT ALSO FOUND SLIGHTLY HIGHER RATES OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AMONG 18-24-YEAR-OLD WOMEN NOT IN COLLEGE.

NONSTUDENTS WERE MORE LIKELY TO REPORT THE ASSAULTS.

FOR BOTH GROUPS 20% OF VICTIMS CITED THE LOOKLY HOOD OF NEGATIVE BACKLASH WHY THEY FAILED TO REPORT THE ATTACK.

IN THE STUDY 2013, THERE WERE NO DIFFERENCES IN THE RATE OF RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULT BETWEEN THE TWO GROUPS.

>> SO WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO TO GET A TRUE PICTURE OF WHAT IS GOING ON WITH SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> WE HAD STUDY AFTER STUDY THIS IS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE STUDY BUT THERE ARE OTHERS CLEARLY THERE ARE ISSUES HERE.

AND WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO RAISE AWARENESS OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE ON THE CAMPUSES WHAT IS AT RISK.

AND WE NEED TO PROSECUTE THESE THINGS.

PEOPLE IF THESE ARE CASES THEY NEED TO BE TAKEN TO A CRIMINAL JUSTICE COURTROOM AND PROSECUTED.

AND I THINK THAT HELPS, IT PUTS PEOPLE GUILTY OF A BAD CRIME THEY GET A PUNISHMENT NOT SENT OFF TO ANOTHER COLLEGE OR TRANSFER OUT BUT SECONDLY, WE HAVE PEOPLE MAKING FALSE ALLEGATIONS AND A CRIMINAL COURT IS A PLACE TO FIGURE THAT OUT.

>> HIGH PROFILE BY THE WAY, I DON'T THINK IT WILL TAKE MANY, ONE OR TWO HIGH PROFILE PROSECUTIONS MIGHT ACT AS A DETERRENT.

>> BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL THINKING THEY CAN DO IT.

>> YES.

BUT THIS IS DIFFICULT.

BECAUSE WE HAVE ALLOWED A CULTURE TO DEVELOP AMONG THE WOMEN AND THE MEN THAT THE WOMEN ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, BECAUSE THEIR PEER ALSO NOT SUPPORT THEM.

AND THE MENINO NOBODY IS GOING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT T WHEN YOU HAVE TO CHANGE A CULTURE IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFICULT THAN FINDING A REMEDY.

BECAUSE THE REMEDY IS REGARDS MUCH MORE THAN THE USUAL LET'S DO THIS AND IT WILL DISAPPEAR.

>> THESE UNIVERSITIES THEY CAN'T ALLOW THEM TO MICRO MANAGE OR NOT MANAGE THEMSELVES.

I BELIEVE PROSECUTION IS THE WAY TO GO.

AND PARENTS CAN HELP WITH THAT.

>> WHY DON'T THEY REFER IT OUT?

>> BECAUSE THE -- >> REFER -- >> BECAUSE IT IS A BLACK EYE THEY WANT TO PROTECT THEMSELVES.

>> AND KEEP THE ENROLLMENT UP.

>> WHY DOESN'T IT CHANGE.

THERESA SULLIVAN AT UVA IS TALKING ABOUT HAVING A BUDDY SYSTEM AT THE FRAT PARTIES.

LIMITING UNDERSTAND AGED DRINKING.

>> COME ON.

THIS IS -- LOOK, YOU SHOULD KNOW IF YOU ARE 18 YEARS OLD IF YOU DO SOMETHING WRONG AND IT IS -- YOU WILL BE CRIMINALLY PROSECUTED THAT SHOULD BE THE THREAT.

IT SHOULD NOT BE MY FRATERNITY IS GOING TO KICK ME OUT OR PAY A FINE.

>> BUT YOU HAVE TO CREATE THE CULTURE WHERE PEOPLE FEEL SAFE REPORTING IN LIGHT OF THE LAST CASE WHERE ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE HAD TO UNWIND IT AND THEN THEY SEEMED TO BE BLAMING THE VICTIM AND IT'S ALL MURKY AND THEN WE HAVE HAD THIS BILL COSBY CASE WHERE YOU HAD ALL THESE WOMEN MAKING ALLEGATIONS.

>> INCLUDING BEVERLY JOHNSON, THE FORMER SUPERMODEL.

>> SO THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH MAKING GOING PUBLIC WITH THESE THINGS.

YOU'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WOMEN THROUGH ALL THE YEARS.

>> THAT IS WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY ABOUT THE PROSECUTIONS AND NOT TO RAISE COSBY IN THE CONTEXT OF SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS BUT OFF CAMPUS, YOU HAD WOMEN WHO ONE WENT TO THE PROSECUTOR IN PHILADELPHIA AND HE SAID I BELIEVE YOU THAT SOMETHING IS GOING ON BUT THERE'S NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO TAKE IT TO A JURY.

>> IT DEPENDS WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS THAT IS AVAILABLE.

BUT THIS IS A DIFFICULT TOPIC BECAUSE THEY SHOULD BE PROSECUTED.

I KNOW IT'S REDID DUNDENT.

AND IN REPORTING FOR WOMEN WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT IN THE PAST BUT I'M STILL CURIOUS WHY WOMEN ARE NOT REPORTING IT.

IS IT THEY ARE FEARFUL THAT NO ONE IS GOING TO BELIEVE THEM OR OSTRACIZED AND NOT GOING TO BE APPROACHED ON CAMPUS?

WE NEED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM LINE.

>> IN THE CASE OF THE UVA WOMAN WHERE ROLLING STONE MISTAKENLY DID NOT CONSULT THE GUY WHO WAS GOING TO DEFY EVERYTHING.

>> THEY DID NOT CONSULT ANYBODY ELSE THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

>> BUT YOU KNOW, HOW RELIABLE WHAT GUY IS GOING TO BE APPROACHED AND SAY, YEAH, I DID ALL THAT?

>> BUT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE INVOLVED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN INTERVIEWED.

>> IT WAS SHODDY JOURNALISM.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IT WAS SHODDY OF ROLLING STONE IN MY VIEW TO WALK BACK SO IMMEDIATELY INSTEAD OF SAYING OK, WE'LL GO CHECK NOW AND DO A FOLLOW-UP.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

BUT I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT RAPE.

RAPE WE FINALLY IN THIS COUNTRY TOOK US ALMOST 10 YEARS TO BEGIN TO TAKE RAPE SERIOUSLY IN MOST POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

RAPE IS VERY HARD TO PROVE.

WE CAN ALL SAY -- >> NOT WITH THE TESTING NOW.

NOT WITH THE DNA TESTING NOW.

RAPE KITS?

RAPE KITS?

>> NO, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT -- >> YOU ARE A BETTER LAWYER THAN I AM.

I WILL GO WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT.

>> GO TO A PARTY AND EVERYBODY IS DRINKING YOU DID HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS.

I SAY IT WAS RAPE HE SAYS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

YOU CONSENTED TO THAT.

HARD TO PROVE.

THAT IS WHY YOU NEED A GOOD HIGH PROFILE CASE THAT IS DIFFICULT TO COME BY, BUT IF DA'S AND U.S.

ATTORNEYS LOOK TORE IT THEY WILL FIND IT.

>> AS I SAID TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY HERE.

YOU PUT YOURSELF IN A BAD SITUATION DOESN'T MEAN IT IS OK THAT BAD THINGS HAPPEN BUT THEY MIGHT AND CAN YOU NOT TAKE IT BACK.

>> I WENT TO A BIG MS RALLY WHERE ONE OF THE WOMEN FIGHTING CAMPUS RAPE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND ONE OF THE WOMEN COMMENTED SHE SAID LET'S TEACH MEN TO STOP RAPING INSTEAD OF TELLING WOMEN NOT TO GO OUT AND HIGH HEELS AND SHORT SKIRTS.

>> YOU LET ME KNOW WHEN THEY GET THAT DONE AND I WILL WEAR MY HIGH HEELS AGAIN.

COME ON.

>> LET ME SAY SOMETHING.

I TALKED TO A PRESIDENT OF A LOCAL COLLEGE, AND WHAT HE HAS DONE HE HAS A TRAINING -- PART OF ORIENTATION.

HE TRAINED AT FACULTIES AND I GOT TO TRAIN THE STUDENTS AND LET THEM KNOW HERE ARE THE PROTECTIONS THAT WILL BE HERE.

THESE ARE THE SITUATIONS YOU CAN GET YOURSELF INTO.

THAT IS A GREAT IDEA BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WALKING IN STRAIGHT FROM HIGH SCHOOL IN A VACUUM WHERE MAYBE IT'S NO ACCIDENT THAT THESE ARE HAPPENING TO THE KIDS IN THEIR FRESHMAN YEAR.

>> AND IT'S BEING TREATED DIFFERENTLY MOST OF THE RAPES ON CAMPUSES THEY KNOW ONE ANOTHER.

BUT WHEN YOU ARE RAPED OUTSIDE BY A STRANGER THEN THEY ARE READY TO MOVE FORWARD WITH IT FASTER.

>> BEHIND THE HEADLINES, BACHA POSH A SECRET THIRD GENDER IN AFGHANISTAN.

TO THE CONTRARY SPOKE WITH JENNY NORDBERG THE JOURNALIST WHO UNCOVERED THE HIDDEN AFGHAN PRACTICE OF RAISING GIRLS AS BOYS.

>> A BACHA POSH SAY GIRL WHO IS DRESSED UP AS A BOY AND BROUGHT UP AS A BOY.

IT MEANS DRESSED UP LIKE A BOY IN DARI, AFGHANISTAN'S SECOND LARGEST LANGUAGE.

>> NORDBERG DISCOVERED THIS PRACTICE WHILE WORKING ON A STORY ON FEMALE PARLIAMENTARIANS.

WHEN INTERVIEWING A POLITICIAN SHE WAS INTRODUCED TO AZITA'S SON WHO WAS ACTUALLY A GIRL.

>> IF YOU ARE WITHOUT A SON YOU ARE SEEN AS WEAK AND YOU ARE NOT ONLY SEEN AS WEAK YOU ARE IN FACT WEAK AND YOU MAY HAVE A HARDER TIME NEGOTIATING A LOAN OR GETTING A JOB OR GETTING REAL ESTATE.

THIS IS THINK OF A VERY OLD TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SON IT'S ALMOST BETTER TO MAKE ONE UP.

>> BEFORE NORDBERG'S RESEARCH AND INVESTIGATION, NOTHING HAD BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT THIS TRADITION.

SHE TURNED TO INTERNATIONAL EXPERTS THEY WERE SKEPTICAL THAT THE PRACTICE EXISTED.

>> YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE SOCIETIES ON EARTH.

AND ONE OF THE HARDEST SOCIETIES IN WHICH TO BE A GIRL AND A WOMAN.

SO GENDER ROLES ARE VERY FIXED.

GIRLS ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE GIRLS AND BEHAVE LIKE GIRLS.

AND BOYS AS BOYS.

AND IN THAT SENSE, THE IRONY OF THIS WHOLE THING IS THAT IN SUCH AN ENVIRONMENT SOME PARENTS JUST SWITCH THEIR CHILDREN INTO THE OTHER GENDER.

>> HER BOOK, THE UNDERGROUND GIRLS OF KABUL REVEALS DIFFERENT WOMEN'S EXPERIENCES OF GROWING UP AS A BACHA POSH.

>> I HAVE INTERVIEWED A NUMBER OF THESE WOMEN NOW WHO IN ADULT AGE WHO HAD THIS EXPERIENCE.

AND MANY OF THEM USUALLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO GIRLS AND WOMEN BEFORE PUBERTY, THEY HAVE TALKED ABOUT HOW IT LEFT THEM WITH AN EMPOWERING EXPERIENCE WHAT IS THE HARDER THING?

TO GROW UP IN A CONSTANT ENVIRONMENT OF WAR AND INSECURITY OR TO BE BROUGHT UP AS THE OTHER GENDER?

MAYBE GENDER IS NOT THE BIG STORY HERE.

>> NORDBERG SAYS GIRLS BEING ONE OF THE BOYS IS BOTH A UNIVERSAL AND HISTORICAL PHENOMENON DEPICTED IN BOOKS AND MOVIES.

>> YOU WILL SEE THISSING GIRLS DRESSING AS BOYS AND YOUNG WOMEN LIVING AS YOUNG MEN THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRIES WHERE YOU KNOW, WHERE WOMEN ARE OPPRESSED.

>> SINCE THIS PRACTICE HAS COME TO LIGHT HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS QUESTIONED WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO HELP THEM?

YET NORDBERG SUGGESTS THIS RAISES LARGER QUESTIONS ABOUT THE WAYS WESTERNERS VIEW GENDER AND FOREIGN INTERVENTION.

>> WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO IS START GENDER PROJECTS AND TEACH AFGHANS ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND A CONSEQUENCE HAS BECOME THAT ANYTHING HUMAN RIGHTS ANYTHING WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE NOW LARGELY SEEN AS A WESTERN IDEA.

A WESTERN INTERVENTION.

SOMETHING THAT HAS STANDS AGAINST MEN.

IT STANDS AGAINST ISLAM.

AND EVEN IF YOU ARE A PROGRESSIVE AFGHAN, MALE OR FEMALE, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO EMBRACE THAT.

BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT SEE YOU AS A FOREIGN COLLABORATOR.

>> IN ALMOST ALL CASES, THE BACHA POSH ARE TURNED BACK INTO WOMEN WHEN THEY COME OF AGE.

THEY TAKE ON THE ROLE OF THE TRADITIONAL AFGHAN WOMAN FORCED TO MARRY AND BEAR CHILDREN.

>> THE WOMEN ALSO DO SAY THAT ONCE THEY HAVE BEEN FORCED TO BECOME WOMEN OR TURNED INTO YOUNG GIRLS FROM HAVING GROWN-UP AS BOYS, THAT THE MALE WHAT IS CONSIDERED TRADITIONALLY MALE HAS STAYED WITH THEM.

>> NORDBERG FOUNDED THE WEBSITE BACHA POSH.COM TO CREATE A PLATFORM FOR WOMEN TO SHARE THEIR STORIES OF BEING A BACHA POSH AND BRINGING THE ISSUE TO THE GLOBAL CONVERSATION ABOUT GENDER EQUALITY, HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOM.

>> THE WAY I SEE IT AT THE HEART OF IT IT IS NOT A STORY ABOUT GENDER IT IS A STORY ABOUT FREEDOM.

>> NOW SHE HAS UNCOVERED THIS BIZARRE PRACTICE, WHAT DO -- WHAT IS AN AMERICAN WESTERNER TO DO IF ANYTHING WITHOUT BEING SEEN AS INTRUDING ON A CULTURAL SITUATION THAT IS ONLY AFGHANISTAN'S BUSINESS AND NOT OURS?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD DO ANYTHING.

IMAGINE WHAT YOU WOULD FEEL LIKE AS A MOTHER HAVING DAUGHTERS HAVE TO LIVE IN THIS OPPRESSIVE SOCIETY THAT YOU YOURSELF HAVE TO LIVE IN?

I DON'T THINK WE CAN MAKE A JUDGMENT CALL ON WHAT IS BEING DONE HERE.

I KNOW THAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS HOPING TO EMPLOY THE SENSE OF FREEDOMS THAT THE WOMEN CAN GAIN THROUGH SEEING WHAT IS GOING ON IN WESTERN CULTURES.

THERE IS A WAR GOING ON IN THE HEADS OF MILLENNIALS IN THE MUSLIM SOCIETIES.

AND ONE THING THAT HELPS US IN THAT WEIGHING OF THE CULTURES IS THEY SEE THAT WOMEN DO HAVE FREEDOM.

THERE IS A PLATFORM ON THE INTERNET CALLED GENERATION CHANGE.

AND IT HAS 25 CHAPTERS OF DIFFERENT MUSLIM GROUPS OF YOUNG MILLENNIALS WHO TALK ABOUT FREEDOM AND OPPORTUNITIES AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF WOMEN.

AND THAT IS PROBABLY WHERE I WOULD RATHER SEE THE BATTLEGROUND WHEN IT COMES TO TRYING TO PROMOTE OUR VALUES.

>> AS USUAL TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING.

>> I AGREE.

WE SHOULDN'T GET INVOLVED.

BUT THAT BEING SAID, IT SEEMS SUCH A SELFISH ACT.

YOU KNOW, YOU RAISE A YOUNG LADY AS A BOY AND THEN WHEN IT'S TIME FOR HER TO GET MARRIED OFF AND HAVE BABIES YOU CAN BE A GIRL AGAIN.

THEY DO NOT TALK ABOUT GETTING THEM EDUCATION AND GETTING THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

FROM WHAT THE STORY IS IT'S DONE BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU HAVE STATURE IN YOUR FAMILY.

>> BECAUSE THE HUSBANDS WANT IT FRANKLY, AND THE HUSBANDS ARE IN CHARGE.

>> MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS OH, FINALLY SOMEBODY HAS FOUND AN ANSWER TO FEMALE OPPRESSION.

JUST BECOME A BOY.

AND THEN I ALMOST WANTED TO CRY.

BECAUSE THIS IS SUCH A PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLATION.

AND I THINK IF WE GET WITH THE GIRLS EARLY ENOUGH AND THE WOMEN, IN SOCIETY -- >> WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.HE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

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