Investigation

[dramatic music]

♫♫

- WHAT I WANTED, ACTUALLY,

IS TO ESTABLISH A NEW TERM OF MONUMENT.

- [speaking Spanish]

- I THINK THAT ANY PHOTOGRAPHER IS AN INVESTIGATOR.

- WE'RE ALL REACHING.

I MEAN, I'M NOT TALKING JUST ABOUT ARTISTS,

BUT, I MEAN, WE ALL ARE REACHING.

[child yelling]

- WE'D LIKE TO THANK Y'ALL.

YOU KNOW, I THANK Y'ALL PERSONALLY, YOU KNOW,

FOR COMING OUT.

[applause]

PLEASE.

PLEASE.

THANK YOU, DJ BABY DEE.

[laughter]

- SAY IT AGAIN.

- DJ BABY DEE.

[laughter]

THIS DAY IS AN EXCEPTIONAL DAY,

BECAUSE IT'S THE DAY OF THE OPENING.

SO WHAT COUNTS NOW AND WHAT IS THE CHANGE

AND WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING

TO ME AS AN ARTIST IS EVERY DAY--

TO BE EVERY DAY HERE,

EVERY DAY HERE TO BE PRESENT AND TO PRODUCE SOMETHING.

WHY THE PRESENCE AND THE PRODUCTION IS SO IMPORTANT?

BECAUSE I BELIEVE ONLY WITH THE PRESENCE

AND THE PRODUCTION,

WE CAN CREATE THE CONDITION

THAT THE RESIDENTS ARE IMPLICATED.

SO EVERY DAY WE WILL BE HERE,

AND WE WILL BE PRESENT AND PRODUCE THE GRAMSCI MONUMENT.

BECAUSE THIS, WHAT YOU SEE, IS NOT THE GRAMSCI MONUMENT.

IT'S ONLY THE STRUCTURE OF THE GRAMSCI MONUMENT.

'CAUSE WHAT I WANT TO DO IS A NEW KIND OF MONUMENT.

SO THIS NEW KIND OF MONUMENT,

I HAVE TO CONSTRUCT IT EVERY DAY IN BEING HERE,

IN BEING PRESENT AND IN PRODUCING

AND IN ADDRESSING IT FIRST

TO THE FAMILY WHO LIVES IN FIFTH FLOOR THERE

OR THE FAMILY WHO LIVES THERE IN FIRST FLOOR

OR THE WOMAN WHO LIVES UP THERE IN THE FIFTH FLOOR.

THEY ARE MY PUBLIC.

THIS IS THE CHALLENGE.

THIS WHAT'S ABOUT, THE GRAMSCI MONUMENT:

TO CREATE MEMORY, A COMMON MEMORY.

- ACE, DEUCE, AND NO USE.

[laughter]

- THE THREE THE HARD WAY.

- YO!

- THESE ARE MY BUDDIES HERE.

I COULD TEASE 'EM ALL DAY LONG.

BUT THEY--I KNOW NOT TO GET OUT OF LINE WITH 'EM NEITHER TOO,

'CAUSE THEY'LL SLAP ME AROUND

LIKE IF I'M ONE OF THEIR CHILDREN.

- YOU WOULDN'T HAVE NEVER FIGURED

IT WOULD'VE BEEN LIKE THIS WHEN THEY FIRST STARTED OUT.

- I BELIEVE THAT EVERY HUMAN BEING

HAS AN UNDERSTANDING OF ART.

WHAT IS SEPARATING US IS SMALLER THAN WHAT IS UNIFYING US.

BUT IN ORDER TO UNIFY,

YOU HAVE REALLY TO TAKE SOMETHING WHO GOES BEYOND.

AND THIS IS ART TO ME.

WHAT I WANTED, ACTUALLY,

IS TO ESTABLISH A NEW TERM OF MONUMENT.

WHY IT'S NEW?

ITS LOCATION.

IT IS NOT IN A PARK.

IT'S NOT IN A CITY CENTER.

IT'S WHERE PEOPLE ARE LIVING.

WHY WHERE PEOPLE ARE LIVING?

BECAUSE I WANT TO ADDRESS IT

TO WHAT I CALL A NONEXCLUSIVE AUDIENCE.

IT IS NEW BECAUSE ITS DURATION HAS NO AMBITION OF ETERNITY.

IT WANTS TO CREATE MEMORY.

ACTUALLY, IN EVERY ARTWORK, I WOULD LIKE TO ESTABLISH

A NEW TERM OF FORM, A NEW TERM OF ART.

THIS IS MY BIG AMBITION, OF COURSE.

- THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME WALKIN' AROUND,

LOOKING WHILE THEY WAS BUILDING IT.

- RIGHT.

- AND THEY WASN'T SURE AT ALL.

- A LOT OF PEOPLE CALL THIS PLACE THE WOOD.

- YEAH, THE WOOD.

- WHAT DID HE CALL IT?

- THE LITTLE RASCALS.

- OH, YEAH, THE LITTLE RASCAL CLUBHOUSE.

- YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I CALL IT.

- THAT'S THE BEST ONE.

THE ONE THAT PHIL HAD CALLED IT, HE SAID,

"LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE MEETS THE BRONX."

I WAS LIKE, "THAT'S IT.

MICHAEL LANDON'S NOWHERE AROUND."

[laughs] YUP.

- BECAUSE I DECIDED TO DO IT WHERE PEOPLE ARE LIVING,

I MUST FIND SOMEBODY WHO AGREE WITH MY PROJECT.

I CALL IT THE KEY FIGURE, ERIK FARMER.

ERIK IS THE PRESIDENT OF FOREST HOUSES,

THE KEY TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

- THE FIRST RESPONSE WAS, "WHAT IS THIS?"

LIKE, "WHAT IS THIS ABOUT?"

YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ART.

I DON'T KNOW WHO ANTONIO GRAMSCI IS.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHO THOMAS HIRSCHHORN WAS.

MY UNDERSTANDING OF A MONUMENT

WAS SOMETHING THAT-- IT PRETTY MUCH DOESN'T MOVE.

IT JUST--YOU KNOW, IT STAYS THERE.

SO I'M LIKE, "HOW CAN IT BE A MONUMENT

BUT YOU'RE SAYING YOU'RE GONNA TAKE IT DOWN?"

SO HE WAS EXPLAINING TO ME THIS IS, LIKE, A NEW CONCEPT.

AND HE ACTUALLY BROUGHT ME SOME BOOKS,

SOME PAST WORK HE DID.

YOU KNOW, I READ UP ON HIM AND ALL THAT.

IT'S A MONUMENT,

BUT IT'S A TEMPORARY MONUMENT.

ONCE HE TOLD ME THAT,

I GOT A UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

AND I KNEW HE WAS INTO TAPE BEFORE THIS.

HE'S, LIKE, A TAPE FREAK OR SOMETHING.

I NEVER--HE LOVES TAPE.

I NEVER SEEN NOBODY LIKE THAT BEFORE.

AND HE TELLS ME, YOU KNOW, "YOU CAN USE TAPE FOR ANYTHING."

HOW CAN YOU USE TAPE FOR ANYTHING?

BUT HE REALLY DOES IT, REALLY.

THOMAS IS-- HE'S DEFINITELY OUT THERE.

BUT HE GOT ME OUT THERE WITH HIM.

THEN--THEN A BANNER.

- SO THEN WE DO ONE BANNER MORE.

CAN WE HANG IT IN YOUR HOUSE?

- OF COURSE, I TOLD YOU.

WHENEVER YOU'RE READY.

WHENEVER--YES.

- I ASKED ERIK TO COMPOSE A TEAM OF 15 PEOPLE

TO BUILD THE STRUCTURE.

WHAT WAS IMPORTANT,

I DIDN'T TELL HIM I NEED SOME SPECIFICITY.

I JUST NEEDED RESIDENTS.

AND HE COMPOSED THE TEAM.

AND I'M VERY PROUD, EVEN WHEN IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT,

TO GO TO THE END WITH THE TEAM.

I TOLD IT IN THE BEGINNING, BUT WHEN YOU ARE DOING AN ARTWORK.

AND ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC SPACE, IT'S NEVER A COMPLETELY SUCCESS.

BUT WHAT IS NICE, IT'S NEVER A COMPLETELY FAILURE.

- THOMAS USES ME AS ONE OF HIS MAIN CARPENTERS.

HE'LL TELL ME TO DO SOMETHING,

AND I'LL TAKE MY CONSTRUCTION EXPERIENCE

TO TRY TO ADD SOMETHING TO IT.

BUT IF HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT THAT WAY, YOU KNOW,

THOMAS IS THE BOSS.

WE HAVE TO DO IT HIS WAY.

A LOT OF TIMES, THOMAS LISTENS TO HOW I DO THINGS.

SO WHEN THEY WALK ON IT, EVERYTHING IS BALANCED.

- OH.

- HE'S NOT A CONSTRUCTION GUY.

YOU KNOW, AS HE SAY, HE'S A ARTISTE.

YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING?

HE'S NOT A CONSTRUCTION GUY AT ALL.

- WELL, WE HAD PLANS MADE BY AN ARCHITECT

BUT ONLY TO GET PERMISSION.

[laughs]

AND, I MEAN-- BUT ALSO IT WAS HELPFUL,

BECAUSE, FOR EXAMPLE, I LEARNED

A STAIRCASE HAVE A CERTAIN DIMENSION.

SO THAT I TRY TO DO-- NOT SO GOOD, BUT WE TRIED.

THE SAME WITH THE RAMP.

I MEAN, IT HAS TO HAVE A KIND OF LEVEL, OF COURSE, TO GO UP.

- I WOULD GO BACKWARDS,

AND THEN WHEN IT TURNED UP, I WOULD TURN AROUND.

SO IT'S FINE, THOMAS.

- OKAY.

TO ME, IT SEEMS THE ONLY WAY TO WORK TOGETHER.

WHICH I WOULD LIKE TO CALL IN COEXISTENCE.

SEEMS TO ME MUCH MORE HONEST TO SAY "COEXISTENCE"

THAN "COLLABORATION."

THEY WILL BE PAID FOR THEIR WORK,

BECAUSE IT'S LIKE I'M COMING IN A GALLERY

AND WORKING WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING FOR THE GALLERY

OR FOR THE MUSEUM.

THEY'RE PAID AS WELL.

- WHEN HE FIRST GOT THERE,

HE DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO FOCUS ON MAKING MONEY

AND PEOPLE JUST FOCUSED ON DOING A JOB.

HE WANTED PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS GENTLEMAN WAS ABOUT,

ANTONIO GRAMSCI.

- I WAS VERY HAPPY THAT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF FOREST HOUSES,

PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T KNOW ANTONIO GRAMSCI

MADE VERY IMMEDIATELY THE CONNECTION

TO NELSON MANDELA OR MALCOLM X.

GRAMSCI IS A PHILOSOPHER OF MARXIST THINKING,

AND HE COMES FROM ITALY.

HE WENT TO PRISON FOR HIS THINKING.

HE DIDN'T MADE A BOOK.

HE MADE HIS NOTEBOOKS, WHO ARE LIKE LAYERS OF THINKINGS,

ALWAYS RELATED TO VERY PRACTICAL THINGS

BUT STILL WITH A BIG AMBITION.

THIS IS NOT A CULTURAL PROJECT BUT AN ART PROJECT.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IT AS A SCULPTURE,

AS SOMETHING WHO WANTS TO ENGAGE WITH THE SURROUNDING BUILDINGS.

WHY THESE MATERIALS?

BECAUSE THEY'RE MATERIALS THAT EVERYBODY USE AND KNOWS.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE IT'S IN FOREST HOUSES,

IN A SOCIALLY NOT FAVORITE NEIGHBORHOOD

THAT IT IS WITH CARDBOARD OR WITH TAPE AND WITH WOOD.

NO, IT BELONGS TO MY AESTHETIC VOCABULARY.

- SHOTGUN, TOO HOT TO TROT.

YO, WE'RE HERE LIVE, 91.9 FM.

DON'T FORGET TO STOP BY THE GRAMSCI BAR AND GRILL,

WHERE THEY'VE GOT ALL THE BEAUTIFUL FOOD AND EVERYTHING.

IT IS SO...

- [singing] ♫EARLY IN THE MORNING♫

♫DRIVE INTO THE STREET♫

THAT'S IT.

[indistinct conversation]

- NO, ISLAND.

DO YOU KNOW HOW TO SPELL?

- ISLAND?

- ON 5:00 SUNDAY, WE GOT MR. MARCUS STEINWEG

WITH THE DAILY LECTURE.

MONDAYS, WE GOT OUR GRAMSCI THEATER.

[people talking at once]

- I'M GOING MAD!

people: WHOO!

- CAPITALISM?

CAPITALISM?

CAPITALISM.

- YOU LEARN.

I MET PEOPLE FROM ALL WALK OF LIFE.

I LOVE THAT.

THAT WAS--THAT WAS THE BEST.

- ALL OVER THE WORLD.

- THAT'S RIGHT.

- THE SECOND PART OF MY WORK

IS WHAT I CALL PUBLIC INTERVENTIONS.

I GO OUT OF THE MUSEUM AND GALLERY WORLD,

AND I TRY TO REACH AN AUDIENCE THAT IS LARGER

THAN THE SMALL AUDIENCE THAT WE KNOW GOES TO THE ART WORLD.

AND THE THIRD PART OF MY PRACTICE IS TEACHING.

THAT'S FINE, YEAH.

THIS IS WORKING?

OKAY, OKAY.

- SORRY.

- IT'S OKAY.

- AND IF IT WASN'T HERE, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE CAME.

- RIGHT.

- 'CAUSE WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO COME HERE?

- ON FRIDAYS, MR. THOMAS HIRSCHHORN HIMSELF

AT 11:00 IN THE MORNING TO 3:00 IN THE AFTERNOON

WITH HIS ART SCHOOL.

HIS ART SCHOOL IS VERY GOOD.

I'VE BEEN TO THE CLASS AND EVERYTHING,

AND IT'S RIGHT HERE ON THE GRAMSCI MONUMENT STAGE.

THOMAS HIRSHHORN'S ART SCHOOL CLASS,

11:00 IN THE MORNING.

AND HIS ART SCHOOL CLASS,

IT CONTAINS ENERGY, YES; QUALITY, NO.

- NEVER ABOUT JUDGING A PERSON, NEVER.

BUT JUDGING A WORK WITH IT, YES,

BECAUSE I BELIEVE ONLY THE JUDGMENT OF SOMETHING

WE DID OURSELF OR SOME OTHER ELSE DID

CAN HELP US TO GO FORWARD.

- IF YOU CAN'T TAKE CRITICISM...

- DON'T COME.

- DON'T COME TO THE CLASS.

- ENERGY, YES.

QUALITY, NO.

I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE CRITERIA OF QUALITY,

BECAUSE I THINK THE CRITERIA OF QUALITY IS EXCLUSIVE.

SO THAT'S WHY I TRY TO INVENT ANOTHER CRITERIA

WHO REPLACE THE CRITERIA OF QUALITY,

THE CRITERIA OF ENERGY.

- IT WAS KIND OF ROUGH.

- AND MAKE BROWN, RIGHT?

- CAN RED AND BLUE AND ORANGE?

- YEAH, THE LAST ONE,

BECAUSE THEY'RE OPPOSITES.

ORANGE AND BLUE ARE OPPOSITES, BECAUSE ORANGE...

THOMAS CAME TO MY SCHOOL.

I GRADUATED FROM PRINCETON UNIVERSITY.

AND HE DID A LECTURE, AND I HAD A STUDIO VISIT WITH HIM.

AND HIS EXPRESSION "ENERGY, YES; QUALITY, NO"

IS SOMETHING THAT REALLY RESONATED WITH ME.

SO I EMAILED HIM AFTERWARDS, ASKING IF I COULD BE INVOLVED

IN HIS NEXT PROJECT, AND HE SAID YES.

IN THE BEGINNING, IT WAS MORE LIKE A CLASS.

LIKE, FOR THE FIRST FIVE OR SIX WEEKS,

THERE WAS VERY, LIKE, SPECIFIC ACTIVITIES

THAT WE WERE DOING ABOUT DIFFERENT ARTISTS,

DIFFERENT IDEAS IN ART,

DIFFERENT TECHNICAL ART CONCEPTS.

BUT THEN IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS,

IT'S BEEN MORE KIND OF JUST, LIKE, AN OPEN WORKSHOP,

'CAUSE NOW THE KIDS ARE COMING IN,

AND THEY HAVE A LOT MORE OF THEIR OWN IDEAS.

YOU WANT TO SPRAY THE INSIDE?

- NO, DON'T SPRAY THE INSIDE.

- ALL RIGHT.

YOU COULD SPRAY THE INSIDE.

- THIS IS NOT A COLLABORATION.

THIS IS WORK IN COEXISTENCE

THAT ME, I DO IT 100%, BUT THE OTHER ALSO 100%.

SO I CANNOT INTERFERE.

I DON'T WANT TO INTERFERE.

AND I WANT TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY--AND I CAN--

OF 100% OF WHAT THE OTHER DOES ALSO.

THAT I CALL UNSHARED AUTHORSHIP.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE RADIO STATION,

WHAT THE DJ GUCCI OR DJ BABY DEE TOLD

AND HOW THEY TOLD IT, I TAKE 100% RESPONSIBILITY ABOUT.

- OFFICES HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF COLLARS TO GET MONTHLY,

I WAS TOLD.

I WAS TOLD, WHEN I WAS WRITING TICKETS,

THAT I HAD A MINIMUM OF 27 TICKETS

I HAD TO WRITE PER MONTH MINIMUM.

LOOK AROUND YOU.

NOTICE THAT WHEN YOU ENTER UPON A PROJECTS,

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU'RE WALKING THROUGH?

WHEREAS IT-- THEY WERE NOT THERE YEARS AGO.

- IT'S, LIKE, GATED.

- RAW IRON GATES.

- YEAH.

- ONCE YOU ENTER UPON THOSE RAW IRON GATES,

YOU'RE PRACTICALLY GOING THROUGH A DOOR.

THAT'S THE INSIGNIA OF TRESPASSING.

- THE THING IS, DO WE GO DOWN?

DO WE MAKE A COMPLAINT?

- OF COURSE.

- DO WE FIGHT THE TICKET?

WAIT A MINUTE.

LET ME JUST FINISH.

DO WE FIGHT THE TICKET, OR DO WE JUST LET IT SIT

AND GET A WARRANT AND THEN DOUBLE UP OUR PROBLEM?

- I THINK I HAVE A SOLUTION.

- YEAH, YEAH, SOLUTION.

LET'S HEAR A SOLUTION.

- I'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH IT, SO...

- THEN, AT 4:00, WE GOT THE DAILY LECTURE

WITH MR. MARCUS STEINWEG.

HIS DAILY LECTURE FOR TODAY IS "FOR THE LOVE OF PHILOSOPHY."

- A KIND OF ONTOLOGICAL VOID OR EMPTINESS.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN, THEN, FOR THE CHANGE

NOW TRANSFORM SITUATION OF THE HUMAN SUBJECT?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE DEFINITION OF WHAT THINKING IS?

SO THINKING IS FIRST TO DEAL WITH THIS LACK,

WITH THIS VOID, WITH THIS EMPTINESS.

CALL IT THE INEXISTENCE OF GOD.

CALL IT SIMPLY A KIND OF-- CALL IT A KIND OF--

THE WHOLE OF FREEDOM,

LIKE JEAN-PAUL SARTRE IS CLAIMING THAT.

- HE SAID THAT YESTERDAY HE DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD.

AND I SAID, "WHAT YOU MEAN, YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD?"

THAT, LIKE, IT GOT TO ME.

I HAD TO GET UP AND SAY--I HAD TO GET UP AND SAY SOMETHING.

"WHAT YOU MEAN, YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD?"

HE SAID HE DON'T BELIEVE IN NOTHING.

I SAID, "OKAY."

- WHEN I'M IN FRONT OF AN ARTWORK,

THERE ARE TWO QUESTIONS.

WHERE DO YOU STAND?

WHAT DO YOU WANT?

- WITHOUT GETTING TOO DEEP, TOO HEAVY--

- YO, THIS NEXT SONG IS A JOINT CALLED I GOT IT.

AND THIS IS BASICALLY BASED ON ANYBODY

WHO'S EVER TRIED TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING

WHEN THE ODDS WAS REALLY AGAINST YOU

BUT YOU STILL PUSHED FORWARD ANYWAY.

- YEAH, YEAH.

- WITH THAT SAID, SOUNDMAN.

[Latin guitar music]

-♫LIKE FLAUNTING THESE ROSES♫

♫SO MANY PHONY IMPOSERS♫

♫SO MANY DAYS ON THE HUMBLE♫

♫NOW FEEL MY ATTITUDE CRUMBLE♫

♫AND I WON'T SHUT IT OFF♫

♫I'VE PAID EVERY COST♫

♫SO ALL THAT SHOTS I CALL♫

♫WHO ARE YOU TO DOUBT IT?♫

♫MANY FLOORS IN ENTERTAINMENT♫

♫I BEAR MY SOUL 'FORE IT'S NAKED♫

♫TOO MANY DREAMS NOW FADED♫

♫THEY'RE SAYING I'LL NEVER MAKE IT♫

♫AND I SHOULD FOLD MY CARDS♫

♫DAMN, I'VE COME TOO FAR♫

♫I SHINE ABOVE THEM ALL♫

♫AND EVERYTHING I LOVE, MAN, I GOT IT♫

THANKS FOR THE LOVE, FOREST PROJECTS.

WE OUT OF HERE.

- I TOLD Y'ALL I WAS GONNA BE CRAZY.

YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE ME.

I TOLD YOU.

- SPEAKING AND TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE,

LISTENING TO OTHER PEOPLE LECTURES,

SAYING WHERE THEY CAME FROM AND FROM WHERE YOU CAME FROM,

WE'RE GONNA MISS IT.

- YEAH.

- YEAH.

- WE AIN'T FEEL IT YET.

WE AIN'T FEEL IT YET, BUT IT'S GONNA BRING SOME TEARS.

IT'S GONNA BRING SOME TEARS HERE.

- 'CAUSE THAT MEANS THE PEOPLE GO.

- RIGHT, AND IT'S JUST GONNA BE SOMETHING LOSS HERE.

JUST GONNA BE LIKE SOMEONE DIED.

- MM-HMM.

- NOW I UNDERSTAND WHAT A MONUMENT MEANS.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT STAYS IN YOUR HEART AND IN YOUR MEMORY,

BECAUSE THEY ONLY HAVE IT ONCE.

- YEAH.

[camera shutter clicks]

- [speaking Spanish]

- I TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS VERY FAST.

I FOLLOW MY INTUITION AND WHAT SURPRISES ME.

I NEVER USE ARTIFICIAL LIGHTS OR FLASH.

I ALWAYS USE MY CAMERA, JUST LIKE THIS.

FRIDA KAHLO'S HOUSE HAS BEEN PHOTOGRAPHED MANY TIMES.

IT IS BEAUTIFUL TO PHOTOGRAPH, BUT I AM ALWAYS TRYING

TO ENCOUNTER SOMETHING THAT HAS NOT BEEN SEEN.

THERE'S GOING TO BE AN EXHIBIT IN DENMARK

OF FRIDA'S ENTIRE LIFE.

I'M GOING TO SHOW SOME PHOTOS THAT I TOOK IN COLOR.

THIS IS THE ROBE WHICH SHE WORE IN THE HOSPITAL,

AND THERE, SHE KEPT PAINTING.

THIS IS PART BLOOD, PART PAINT.

THE DIRECTOR OF THIS MUSEUM GAVE ME PERMISSION

TO PHOTOGRAPH FRIDA'S BATHROOM.

I TOOK THE PHOTOS IN BLACK AND WHITE,

WHICH IS MORE MY WAY OF EXPRESSING MYSELF.

THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE COME TO THIS MUSEUM.

SHE'S STILL A FIGURE OF SAINTHOOD.

I AM NOT A FRIDA MANIAC.

DESPITE HER SUFFERING, SHE PAINTED,

AND THIS IS WHAT I ADMIRE.

MY PHOTOGRAPHY ABOUT PAIN IS VERY CATHOLIC,

VERY RELATED TO MY CATHOLIC EDUCATION.

THIS IS FRIDA'S BATHROOM.

THIS IS A SELF-PORTRAIT I TOOK OF MYSELF IN THE TUB

AFTER MY FOOT OPERATION.

SHE HAS A PICTURE CALLED WHAT THE WATER GIVES ME

THAT HAS HER FEET LIKE THIS, BUT WITH WATER.

I HAVE DONE VARIOUS SELF-PORTRAITS.

THIS IS A SELF-PORTRAIT OF ME IN TROTSKY'S HOUSE.

I AM VERY CLOSE FRIENDS WITH TROTSKY'S GREAT-GRANDDAUGHTER.

WHEN I GO THERE, I GET A LITTLE BIT DEPRESSED,

BECAUSE THEY LEFT THE HOUSE WITH ALL THOSE BULLET HOLES,

WITH A LOT OF POLITICAL MEMORIES.

WE WERE 13 KIDS.

I'M THE OLDEST.

VERY, VERY CATHOLIC.

I WAS EDUCATED BY NUNS.

I THINK THAT I'M THE ONLY ONE IN MY FAMILY

THAT ISN'T CATHOLIC ANYMORE.

NOW I'M AN ATHEIST.

MM, LET'S SAY AGNOSTIC.

MY FATHER USED TO TAKE PICTURES OF US

IN BLACK AND WHITE WHEN WE WERE KIDS.

I USED TO STEAL THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

AND SOMETIMES I GOT PUNISHED,

BECAUSE I WAS ALWAYS OPENING THAT DRAWER

AND TAKING THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

AND I MADE MY OWN ALBUMS.

SO FROM THERE ON, I LIKED BLACK-AND-WHITE PHOTOGRAPHY.

I WANTED TO BE A WRITER WHEN I WAS A CHILD,

BUT I GOT MARRIED VERY YOUNG.

I GOT MARRIED WHEN I WAS 19.

I WAS 26 YEARS OLD WHEN I STARTED TO STUDY CINEMA,

WITH KIDS ALREADY.

MY ENTRY INTO FILM SCHOOL WAS FANTASTIC,

BECAUSE MANUEL, MANUEL ALVAREZ BRAVO,

WAS TEACHING THERE.

NOBODY WENT TO HIS CLASSES,

BECAUSE EVERYBODY WANTS TO BECOME A FILM DIRECTOR.

BUT AT THE THIRD SESSION, HE ASKED ME,

"DO YOU WANT TO BE MY ASSISTANT?"

"I WOULD LOVE TO.

IT'S MY PLEASURE."

AND THAT IS HOW I GOT TO KNOW THIS WONDERFUL MAN.

I ALWAYS FELT MANUEL ALVAREZ BRAVO'S POETRY.

SOMETIMES HE ONLY PLACED HIS CAMERA AT A LANDSCAPE HE LIKED

AND HE WAITED FOR SOMETHING TO HAPPEN.

AND HE ALWAYS SAID, "THERE IS TIME.

THERE IS TIME."

IT WAS A REAL PRIVILEGE TO HAVE FOUND HIM,

BECAUSE HE NOT ONLY TAUGHT ME ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY;

HE TAUGHT ME ABOUT LIFE.

ALVAREZ BRAVO FOCUSED ON TREE TRUNKS

TO CREATE ABSTRACTIONS.

WHEN I REMEMBER THAT HE SHOT IT, I SAY, "NO.

"THE INFLUENCE IS TOO GREAT.

I BETTER NOT."

BUT SINCE I SAW THAT THERE WAS A BEAUTIFUL LIGHT...

THIS IS JUCHITAN.

I WENT TO JUCHITAN

BECAUSE FRANCISCO TOLEDO, THE PAINTER, IS FROM THERE.

HE INVITED ME TO DO WORK

AND DISPLAY IT IN THE CULTURE HOUSE

SO THE PEOPLE COULD SEE WE WEREN'T JUST TAKING

BUT THAT WE WERE ALSO GIVING BACK.

I WAS THERE, MORE OR LESS, SIX YEARS.

I WOULD GO AND COME BACK,

AND I WAS ABLE TO IMMERSE MYSELF

AND HAVE THE COOPERATION OF THE PEOPLE OF JUCHITAN.

THIS IS TOLEDO'S AUNT.

IN JUCHITAN, HOMOSEXUALITY IS PERMITTED.

IT'S ONE OF THE VERY FEW PLACES IN MEXICO THAT'S VERY LIBERAL.

LOOK, HERE'S MAGNOLIA.

I WAS BUYING BEER WITH THE WOMEN,

AND MAGNOLIA SAID, "OOH, MY LOVE, CAN YOU PHOTOGRAPH ME?"

I TOLD HER, "YES, OF COURSE."

HERE'S THE MOMENT WHERE SHE'S PUTTING MAKEUP ON.

I WENT TO THE JUCHITAN MARKET.

I WENT THERE BECAUSE I KNEW

THAT THE WOMEN WOULD BE MORE ACCEPTING OF ME,

SO I SOLD TOMATOES WITH THEM.

I SAW EVERYTHING THEY DID.

THEN THIS WOMAN CAME.

HER NAME IS SULVEDA.

12 PHOTOS.

ONLY TWO IGUANAS REMAINED ALIVE.

THEY ARE SOLD TO PEOPLE TO EAT.

AND I CALLED THIS PHOTO OUR LADY OF IGUANAS.

AGAIN, MY RELIGIOUSNESS COMES OUT.

THIS WORK, I DID WITH THE SERIS.

THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE FROM THE JUCHITECAS.

WITH THE SERIS, EVERYTHING IS VERY SEVERE,

BECAUSE THEY LIVE IN THE DESERT.

I LIVED WITH THEM FOR A TIME,

NOT AS LONG AS I DID IN JUCHITAN.

THESE WORKS WERE DONE MORE OR LESS AT THE SAME TIME.

I STARTED THEM IN 1979.

I DID ANOTHER BOOK ABOUT THE SLAUGHTER OF GOATS

BY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WHO, FOR GENERATIONS UPON GENERATIONS,

WORKED FOR RICH SPANISH EMPLOYERS.

THEY WERE PAID VERY LITTLE.

AND THEY ALWAYS CROSSED THEMSELVES

BEFORE KILLING THE GOATS.

THAT'S WHY I GAVE THE BOOK THE TITLE

IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER.

IN EACH WORK, I FIND DIFFERENT THINGS.

HERE, I FOUND THIS RELIGIOUS PART.

IT'S LIKE THE SACRIFICE OF ABRAHAM.

I REALLY LIKE TO PHOTOGRAPH INTENSE THINGS.

THIS IS A WORK THAT I DID WITH THE CHOLOS.

THEY ARE A VERY MARGINALIZED PEOPLE

THAT WERE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES,

AND I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE AND WORK WITH THEM

FOR A SHORT WHILE.

I BEGAN WORKING WITH THE CHOLOS IN LOS ANGELES IN THE '80s.

AND FROM THERE, I WENT TO TIJUANA.

ALL CHOLO INFLUENCE.

I WANTED TO DO AN INVESTIGATION.

BUT WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT I WAS ONLY THERE TWO WEEKS.

I RETURNED LATER.

IT MADE ME VERY DEPRESSED.

I'M VERY INTERESTED

IN HOW A MEXICAN GOES TO THE UNITED STATES,

BECAUSE FOR THEM, THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM,

BECAUSE HERE IN MEXICO, THERE AREN'T JOBS.

WHAT HAPPENS IS, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO FIND.

I WENT TO DO A TOUR OF THE SOUTHERN UNITED STATES.

IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I WAS TAKING LANDSCAPE PHOTOGRAPHS.

I BEGAN TO ENTER INTO THE LANDSCAPE.

I BEGAN LEARNING ABOUT LIFE IN THE UNITED STATES,

WHERE THERE ARE NO PEOPLE ON THE STREETS,

WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM MEXICO.

AND NOW I MOSTLY ONLY PHOTOGRAPH LANDSCAPES.

I WENT TO INDIA.

THE FIRST TRIP WAS ABOUT PEOPLE.

SINCE THEN, I'VE GONE FOUR MORE TIMES.

AND NOW I MADE A BOOK TITLED THERE IS NO ONE,

BECAUSE THERE IS NO ONE.

THERE ARE ONLY OBJECTS.

THERE ARE ONLY LANDSCAPES.

I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO PHOTOGRAPH THE ABSTRACT

AND NOW THE REBARS, THE BUILDINGS,

THINGS I NEVER IMAGINED PHOTOGRAPHING.

I JUST FINISHED A PROJECT IN L.A.

EARLIER THIS YEAR.

I WAS IN L.A. FOR A MONTH AND A HALF.

IT IS CALLED CRIBA DEL CIELO, SIEVE OF SKY.

IT IS LIKE A GRID, A NET WHERE THE LIGHT PASSES THROUGH

OR SOMETHING THAT PASSES THROUGH THE BRAIN.

IT IS WITH THE TEXT OF FABIENNE BRADU,

WHO IS A CLOSE FRIEND OF MINE AND A VERY GOOD WRITER.

I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT FOR ME,

THE CAMERA IS JUST A PRETEXT FOR KNOWING THE WORLD.

I AM INTERESTED IN WHAT MY EYES SEE

AND WHAT MY HEART FEELS.

WHY GRIDS?

IT MEANS PRISON, SOMETHING LIKE THAT,

SOMETHING THAT IS ENCLOSED.

MAYBE I FEEL LIKE I'M IN PRISON MYSELF.

MAYBE I ALSO FEEL LOCKED UP.

MAYBE MY CAMERA IS LIBERATING ME FROM THOSE FEELINGS.

IT'S WHAT TOUCHES ME, WHAT MOVES ME.

THAT IS WHAT I PHOTOGRAPH.

- HOLA, CAMI.

COMO ESTAS?

- I PHOTOGRAPH MY GRANDCHILDREN ALL THE TIME.

EVERYBODY HAS A PHOTO ALBUM.

- [speaking Spanish]

- THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT HER WORK

IS THAT IT ALWAYS REINVENTS ITSELF.

IT'S A WORK THAT HAS A HUGE OPPORTUNITY TO NOT REPEAT,

TO NOT GENERATE A STYLE

BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, TO SEARCH FOR OR BE AN EXAMPLE

FOR WHAT HUMAN BEINGS CAN DO WITH THEIR LIVES.

- I AM A COMPOSER, AN INTERDISCIPLINARY ARTIST

THANKS TO MY MOTHER, OF COURSE.

ALSO TO MY FATHER BUT MAINLY--

THE REBEL PART, I GOT IT FROM MY MOTHER.

[all speaking Spanish]

ALSO, MY NEUROSES, I GOT IT FROM MY MOTHER TOO.

[laughs]

- I STUDIED ARCHITECTURE THINKING THAT AFTERWARDS

I WOULD BE DEDICATED TO MAKING MOVIES,

A MASTER'S DEGREE IN FILM,

OR THAT I WOULD START TAKING PHOTOS.

AND WHEN I FINISHED MY DEGREE,

SURE THAT I WOULD CHANGE PATHS OR GO TO ANOTHER PLACE,

IT WAS MY MOTHER WHO ASKED ME TO DESIGN HER HOUSE.

THAT'S THE HOUSE THAT WE'RE IN.

THE IMPORTANT THING IS NOT THE ARCHITECTURE.

IT'S THE INVESTIGATION ONE HAS.

AND THAT, I LEARNED AS MUCH FROM MY MOTHER AS MY FATHER,

VIA MY MOTHER FROM ALVAREZ BRAVO.

ARCHITECTURE IS A TOOL.

THE IMPORTANT THING IS INVESTIGATION.

- [speaking Spanish]

[laughter]

- I HAVE A SMALL EXHIBITION THAT IS UP AT THE TATE MODERN.

I NEVER IMAGINED BEING IN THE TATE MODERN.

IT IS STRANGE, BECAUSE PHOTOGRAPHY

HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE REDHEADED STEPCHILD

OF THE ARTISTIC DISCIPLINES.

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN,

TO BE SO CLOSE TO SUCH IMPORTANT PAINTERS,

IT'S STRANGE.

BUT I'M VERY HAPPY.

I THINK THAT ANY PHOTOGRAPHER IS AN INVESTIGATOR.

PHOTOGRAPHY IS A PRETEXT TO KNOW THE WORLD, TO KNOW LIFE,

TO KNOW YOURSELF.

IF I WERE NOT A PHOTOGRAPHER, I WOULD BE VERY, VERY BADLY OFF.

I WOULD HAVE A VERY BAD TIME,

BECAUSE CREATIVITY IS NEEDED TO KEEP MOVING FORWARD.

- WHEN I GET UP IN THE MORNING,

I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I'M GONNA BE DOING.

I'M GONNA BE WORKING.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORKS ARE ACTUALLY GONNA BE ABOUT,

BUT THEY FIND THEIR WAY.

I WAS DRAWING AND USING COLORED INKS

AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THE PROJECTS WHERE I GREW UP

IN BRIDGEPORT, CONNECTICUT,

THEY WERE TELLING ME ABOUT THIS PLACE

CALLED THE ABCD CULTURAL ARTS CENTER.

THEY SAID THAT, "WELL, YOU HAVE TO GO THERE,

BECAUSE THEY HAVE PAINTS AND CANVASES."

I SAID, "WOW, ALL THIS STUFF FOR FREE."

SO ONCE I MADE MY WAY OVER TO THEM,

I ENDED UP WITH THESE MENTORS, A FANTASTIC GROUP OF ARTISTS

WHO WERE JUST THERE HELPING KIDS.

AND I WAS ONE OF THEM.

[projector whirring]

[birds chirping]

[laughs] MY GOODNESS.

JUST COPYING CARTOONS HERE.

JUST COPIED DIRECTLY FROM TELEVISION,

LIKE, WHATEVER I WAS WATCHING.

I HAD THE FACILITY TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT AT A YOUNG AGE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT WASN'T ORIGINAL THOUGHT.

THIS IS ACTUALLY A--THE--

FROM THE NEWSPAPER ARTICLE

WHEN I--MY FIRST EXHIBITION AT AGE 13.

AND WE USED IT AS A FLYER.

AND OF COURSE THESE ARE MUCH LATER.

I WAS APPROACHED BY DC COMICS AND HEAVY METAL MAGAZINE

AND MARVEL COMICS TO DO WORK FOR THEM.

WHEN I SAW THIS BLACK-AND-WHITE REPRODUCTION

OF JACKSON POLLOCK'S WORK

WHEN I WAS IN THE LIBRARY IN HIGH SCHOOL,

THAT WAS IT.

AND THAT WAS MY FIRST TAKE ON WHAT FINE ART WAS.

CAN YOU IMAGINE JACKSON POLLOCK ONLY IN BLACK AND WHITE?

BUT IT STILL, YOU KNOW, ELICITED SUCH A VISCERAL RESPONSE

THAT WHEN SEEING IT, I WAS KIND OF LIKE,

"WOW, THIS IS AMAZING."

AND FROM THAT POINT ON, I BEGAN TO QUESTION, YOU KNOW,

WHAT I WAS DOING

UP AGAINST WHAT I HAD SEEN AND WHAT I HAD FELT.

MORE, ACTUALLY, WHAT I HAD FELT.

PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN, LIKE, 15.

I WAS STILL EXHIBITING A CERTAIN TYPE OF WORK,

BUT IT HAD TOUCHES OF WHAT I HAD REALIZED.

YOU KNOW, WHEN IT CAME TIME FOR ME TO GO TO COLLEGE,

YOU KNOW, IT WAS PRETTY EASY TO SORT OF MAKE A DECISION,

LIKE, OKAY, YOU CAN JUST DO COLLEGE,

OR YOU USE YOUR TALENTS AS SORT OF LIKE A--

TO GO OUT AND, YOU KNOW, HAVE A LIFE OR MAKE MONEY.

AND IT'S LIKE IT WAS PRETTY EASY, YOU KNOW?

IT WAS LIKE-- WELL, IT'S LIKE

YOU GO TO THE PLACE

WHERE IT'S GONNA GET YOU CLOSER TO, YOU KNOW,

THE JACKSON POLLOCK, YOU KNOW?

[laughs]

I STUDIED AT COOPER UNION.

I WAS PROBABLY THE GREEDIEST PERSON THERE,

BECAUSE I DIGESTED EVERYTHING.

I MEAN, I WAS IN THE FOUNDRY, THE WOODSHOP,

YOU KNOW, LIKE, MAKING PAPER, PHOTOGRAPHY.

AND THEN I ASKED FOR AN EXTRA YEAR.

I HAD TO FIGHT FOR IT, BUT THEY GAVE IT TO ME.

[laughs]

MY ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO DRAW AND PAINT WELL

ACTUALLY WAS GETTING IN THE WAY

OF ME REALIZING SOMETHING LARGER.

IT'S HARD TO GET PAST SOMETHING SO BEAUTIFULLY DONE

AND THEN, AT THE SAME TIME, ASK THE QUESTION,

"WHAT'S UNDERNEATH THAT?"

WHAT DECIDED WAS, IT WAS TIME FOR ME

TO STOP USING WHAT I DID WELL.

SO WHAT I DID WAS ALMOST LITERALLY TIED MY HANDS.

I SAID, "OKAY, YOU CAN NO LONGER PAINT OR DRAW,

AND YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER WAY TO CREATE."

THIS IS WHERE I WOULD HAVE STOPPED DRAWING, ACTUALLY.

THIS IS WHERE IT ENDED.

[sighs]

IT WAS, LIKE, SEVEN YEARS BEFORE I MADE A BREAKTHROUGH.

SO, LIKE, FROM 1982 TO 1989, THROUGH THE SEVEN YEARS

OF JUST EXPERIMENTING, YOU KNOW, THIS PIECE CAME OUT,

WHICH WAS NUMBER 8.

ANIMAL PARTS, ROPE, STRING,

EVERYTHING THAT YOU CAN POSSIBLY IMAGINE,

IT'S ALL ENTANGLED IN THIS ONE MONSTER OF A PIECE.

IT WAS MADE UP OF ALL THE FAILURES

OR AT LEAST WHAT I PERCEIVED AS FAILURES.

IF YOU'RE NUMBER EIGHT, THEN THAT MEANS THERE'S, LIKE,

ONE TO SEVEN THAT ARE NO LONGER THERE.

SO IT'S LIKE THEY WERE A PART-- ALL A PART OF NUMBER 8.

ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I ACTUALLY NUMBER THE WORKS

IS TO GIVE THE VIEWER ENOUGH ROOM

TO FIND THEMSELVES IN THE WORK.

THE WORK SHOULD BECOME A MIRROR.

THERE ARE THREE AREAS ON THIS PIECE OF IMPORTANCE

THAT I SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO.

SO I CAN'T PLACE SOMETHING HERE

WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT'S GOING ON OVER THERE.

SO THIS TELLS THIS AREA WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN,

AND THAT TELLS THIS WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN,

AND THEY SPEAK TO ONE ANOTHER.

SO I KNOW THERE'S A GRADATION GOING ON, FOR INSTANCE.

THAT IS A SWEEP, YOU SEE?

BOOM.

AND THEN IT'S A--YOU KNOW, IT JUST--

BY THE TIME IT REACHES THE BOTTOM--

THIS IS THE TOP-- IT'S GONNA BE THAT BIG.

[laughs]

THAT WAY OF CREATING

IS ACTUALLY ONLY A MICROCOSM OF HOW I MAKE THINGS,

BECAUSE WHEN I'M WORKING ON THIS,

I'M PAYING ATTENTION TO THAT.

AND THAT'S TELLING ME WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN OVER HERE TOO.

AND I CAN SEE THINGS THAT ARE NOT WORKING OVER THERE,

THAT I SAY, "OKAY,

MAKE SURE THAT THAT'S NOT OCCURRING HERE."

AND THEN THIS HELPS ME BY SAYING,

"OH, YOU KNOW WHAT?

THIS NEEDS THAT OVER THERE," YOU KNOW?

SO A LOT OF TIMES, I CAN RIP THINGS OUT.

THAT PIECE, ACTUALLY, IS ALREADY MADE UP

OF AT LEAST FOUR DIFFERENT PIECES.

YEAH, AND THE LONGER THE WORK HANGS AROUND,

THE BETTER OFF IT IS.

MY NUMBER IS USUALLY SEVEN.

I'M ROTATING SEVEN THINGS.

THEY'RE SPEAKING TO EACH OTHER.

BUT IT IS SOMETIMES LIKE SEVEN CRYING BABIES.

YOU'RE TRYING TO GET THIS ONE, TO THAT ONE,

AND YOU'RE BOUNCING AROUND.

AND THEN THEY LEAVE.

I END UP VISITING THESE THINGS IN MUSEUMS OR PEOPLE'S HOMES,

AND ON A WHOLE, THOSE PEOPLE,

THOSE FOLKS OR EVEN SECURITY GUARDS AT MUSEUMS

END UP KNOWING MORE ABOUT THE WORKS THAN I COULD HAVE,

BECAUSE THEY'RE LIVING WITH THEM

AND THEY'VE HAD LONGER--

YOU KNOW, MUCH LONGER AMOUNT OF TIME

TO SORT OF EXPERIENCE THEM.

AND I ONLY HAVE THEM FOR A SECOND, YOU KNOW?

I REMEMBER MAKING A PIECE IN MY APARTMENT.

AT THE TIME, I WAS LIVING IN WASHINGTON HEIGHTS.

A FRIEND OF MINE CAME OVER, AND HE SAID,

"WELL, HOW YOU GONNA GET IT OUT?"

YOU KNOW, I SAID, "I HADN'T THOUGHT OF THAT."

YOU KNOW, I WASN'T REALLY THINKING

ABOUT TAKING THE PIECE OUT OF THERE, YOU KNOW?

I GOT SMART ENOUGH

TO SORT OF AT LEAST BREAK THESE THINGS UP

INTO, LIKE, INCREMENTS OF 24x24 PLATES

SO THAT WHEN I DO HANG IT, YOU KNOW,

AT LEAST IF THERE WAS NO HELP AROUND,

I COULD DO IT BY MYSELF.

BEING A PERSON OF COLOR IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT,

YOU KNOW, YOU WILL HAVE TO CONTEND WITH.

AS AN ARTIST, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REALIZE IT,

AND YOU'RE GONNA HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.

WHEN I ACTUALLY DID THIS SHOW BACK IN 1992,

THERE WERE THINGS THAT SORT OF CAME OUT OF THAT EXHIBITION

WHICH I HAVE NOT NECESSARILY RETURNED TO,

BUT THEY HAVE DEFINITELY BEEN THINGS

THAT PEOPLE WILL PROBABLY CONTINUE TO REMEMBER

AND WRITE ABOUT,

EVEN IF THE WORK HAS ABSOLUTELY, AT THIS POINT,

NOTHING TO DO WITH COTTON OR ROPES OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

THERE'S A HUGE COTTON WALL PIECE THAT I HAD DONE.

AT THE TIME, I WAS USING A FRIEND, JACK WHITTEN'S STUDIO.

AND I DIDN'T HAVE A CAR.

I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A LICENSE, MY GOODNESS.

AND JACK WAS LIVING OUT ON LISPENARD, AND I--

WHICH IS BEHIND CANAL STREET.

I MEAN, THAT'S LIKE, OH, SOME ALMOST 30 BLOCKS, YOU KNOW?

SO IT'S LIKE, "OKAY."

I PUT THE BALE OF COTTON ON THE DOLLY

AND PUSHED IT IN THE STREET.

AND I REMEMBER THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT CAME OUT FROM THAT.

[laughs]

OUTRAGEOUS.

FOR ME, IT WAS VERY PRACTICAL TO GET, YOU KNOW,

FROM "A" TO "B."

BUT, IN FACT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE PHOTOGRAPHS,

IT'S LIKE A POLITICAL STATEMENT.

AND THEN FROM THERE, IT WAS LIKE, OKAY,

CREATING THE PIECE.

MY PEOPLE'S HISTORY IS NOT ABOUT JUST BLACK PEOPLE.

IT'S, LIKE, ABOUT ALL OF US.

I MEAN, THERE WERE THINGS IN THAT EXHIBITION THAT--

THAT WENT THROUGH MY BODY THAT WERE HUGE.

IN 1992, I GOT IT ALL OUT.

IT GOT SAID.

FOR ME TO LINGER ON THAT,

IT WOULD BE ALMOST DOING THE ART A DISSERVICE.

I WAS THERE 11 YEARS IN A STUDIO IN SAN ANTONIO.

I WAS ALWAYS GOING BACK AND FORTH

FROM NEW YORK TO SAN ANTONIO.

ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT HAS CONSISTENTLY COME UP

WHEN PEOPLE WRITE ABOUT THE ART

IS THAT THEY TALK ABOUT FOUND OBJECTS.

ACTUALLY, I DON'T WORK WITH FOUND OBJECTS.

MOST OF MY MATERIAL, I ACTUALLY CREATED IN THE STUDIO.

SO I ACTUALLY GO OUT AND I BUY MATERIAL,

BRAND-NEW STUFF.

ACTUALLY, I BECOME THE WEATHER.

MY REASONS FOR HAVING A STUDIO IN SAN ANTONIO

HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE INTENSITY OF THE HEAT

AND HOW I COULD ACTUALLY WEATHER SOME OF THE MATERIALS

THAT I WAS WORKING WITH.

WHAT I ENDED UP DOING WAS, LIKE,

HOISTING ONTO THE ROOF OF THE STUDIO

THESE EIGHT-FOOT CATTLE TROUGHS.

PROBABLY, LIKE, SIX OF THEM.

AND I WOULD COOK THE MATERIALS,

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES FOR MONTHS AND YEARS,

DEPENDING ON WHAT IT IS I WAS AFTER.

THERE'S THE ARTWORK THAT YOU PHYSICALLY MAKE,

BUT THERE'S ALSO THE JOURNEY THAT HAPPENS ON THE INSIDE.

THAT BODY OF WORK WAS EMOTIONALLY HEAVY,

AND I JUST THOUGHT,

"WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU TOOK THAT AWAY?"

AND HERE WE ARE AGAIN WITH THIS QUESTION.

YOU'RE COMFORTABLE.

HOW DO I GET TO THE NEXT PLACE?

SO YOU GET RID OF ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE--

YOU FIND THAT ARE COMFORTABLE.

SO I SAY, "OKAY, GET RID OF THE RUST."

AND IT WAS AT THAT POINT THAT THE FABRIC WORKSHOP

HAD ASKED ME TO COME UP WITH AN IDEA FOR A PIECE

AS I WAS ASKING THAT QUESTION.

I SAID, "WHAT IF I TOOK JUST WHITE PAPER?"

JUST LIKE XEROX PAPER, YOU KNOW,

LIKE, REALLY, 16-POUND PAPER.

AND IT'S LIKE, "OKAY, TRANSFORM THAT, YOU KNOW, INTO SOMETHING."

WHAT IF I TOOK OBJECTS

AND I WRAPPED THE PAPER AROUND THEM

AND THEN RELEASED THEM FROM THE OBJECTS?

BOOM, TAKE A RAZORBLADE.

YOU CUT IT AWAY.

BOOM, TAKE THE OBJECT OUT.

PUT IT BACK TOGETHER.

THERE WAS NOTHING UNDERNEATH THE WHITE PAPER.

JUST THE PAPER.

SO IT'S JUST A SHELL IN THE END, YOU KNOW?

SO YOU'RE GETTING, LIKE, REALLY A GHOST IMAGE.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS REVEALING.

NO MATTER WHAT MATERIALS I END UP USING,

ONCE YOU FIND YOUR VOICE, THAT'S IT.

THERE IS NO ESCAPING YOUR PAST.

WITH CERTAINTY, ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY,

I CAN LOOK BACK ON SOME OF THE CONFIGURATIONS

THAT I'VE CREATED, AND I CAN SEE THOSE PROJECTS.

I CAN SEE THE LANDFILL.

WE'RE RIGHT NEXT TO THE DUMP.

I MEAN, LITERALLY, WE CAN SEE THE DUMP FROM OUR WINDOW,

AND WE CAN SEE, YOU KNOW, THE TRACTORS

GOING BACK AND FORTH OVER THE LANDFILLS.

THAT WAS WHAT I KNEW.

I SPENT TIME AT THE DUMP.

I CAN SEE THE GRID, FOR INSTANCE.

INTERESTING NOW, PEOPLE GO ON LIKE,

"OH, HIS CONNECTIONS TO MINIMALISM."

I SAY, "ACTUALLY, IT'S MORE LIKE THOSE--

THOSE GRITTY PROJECTS."

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

[sighs]

WHEN YOU'RE CREATING, THERE ARE SATISFYING MOMENTS,

AND THEN THERE ARE MOMENTS THAT ARE KIND OF, LIKE, ENDPOINTS

OR--OR--OR BEGINNINGS.

MY GALLERY APPROACHED ME,

"WHAT IF WE ALLOW YOU TO TAKE ON THE SPACE?"

I HAD THE SPACE FOR A MONTH TO ACTUALLY CREATE IN THE SPACE.

AND WHAT I DID WAS, AS ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, BOUGHT MATERIALS

LIKE THE WOOD AND STUFF LIKE THAT

AND BEGAN TO, YOU KNOW, WASH IT AND BURN IT AND TRANSFORM IT.

WHAT WE ENDED UP WITH WAS THIS DILAPIDATED WALL.

THIS THING WAS 109 FEET LONG AND MONSTROUS.

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS BIG, BOMBASTIC, AND SENSATIONAL

DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT IT'S SUCCESSFUL.

IT WAS LIKE ALL OF A SUDDEN, I HAD THIS EPIPHANY.

"IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO START REACHING AGAIN.

THIS IS NOT QUITE ENOUGH."

I KNOW THIS TOO WELL, AND I'M GETTING TOO COMFORTABLE AGAIN.

NOW, FOR THE VIEWER, THEY CAN'T KNOW THAT.

THEY CAN ONLY KNOW WHAT YOU PRESENT TO THEM.

I'M FINDING THAT THE WORK IS BECOMING,

LIKE, A MONSTER SOMETIMES IN WHAT IT NEEDS,

AND I JUST KEEP FEEDING IT.

THE FACT IS, I'VE SORT OF ALMOST SET MYSELF UP IN LIFE

SO THAT I CAN GIVE COMPLETELY OR COMMIT COMPLETELY

TO THIS PROCESS OF CREATING.

I MEAN, I'VE NEVER BEEN MARRIED.

I HAVE NO KIDS.

I LOVE KIDS.

I LOVE WOMEN.

[laughs]

BUT I DON'T HAVE EITHER.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SO THAT TELLS YOU SOMETHING

ABOUT MY COMMITMENT TO, LIKE, THIS LIFE.

WE'RE ALL REACHING.

I MEAN, I'M NOT TALKING JUST ABOUT ARTISTS,

BUT, I MEAN, WE ALL ARE REACHING.

AS I'M CREATING, I KNOW THAT I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY

OF WHATEVER I FEEL OR KNOW, I MAKE INTO MATERIAL.

WHAT A JOURNEY, THOUGH.

I'VE ENJOYED IT FOR ALL OF MY LIFE.

AND STILL I'M INTRIGUED.

YOU KNOW, I STILL WANT TO REACH OUT.

I STILL WANT TO REACH.

I STILL WANT TO REACH.

I STILL WANT TO REACH.

THERE'S NO OTHER WAY OF DOING IT

EXCEPT FOR THIS PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION

OF WHAT I'VE BEEN THROUGH.

AND IF I WERE TO SORT OF, LIKE, SAY WHAT MY WORK WAS--

ACTUALLY WHAT MY WORK WAS ABOUT, I COULDN'T TELL YOU.

AND EVEN IF I KNEW, I PROBABLY WOULDN'T TELL YOU.

[laughs]

[sighs]

AS I'M MOVING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO ANSWERING QUESTIONS,

AT THE SAME TIME, I'M MOVING FURTHER AWAY FROM THE ANSWERS.

SO ALL I HAVE TO DO AT THIS POINT

IS CONTINUE TO SORT OF PLACE MY BODY

IN THE ACT OF ATTEMPTING TO KNOW.

announcer: NEXT TIME ON ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY

ANYONE WHO'S EVER PUT A STAMP ON AN ENVELOPE

KNOWS WHAT IT'S LIKE TO MAKE A COLLAGE.

BECAUSE CLAY HAS NO CHARACTER

I CAN MAKE ANYTHING.

IT'S JUST THERE TO BE INVENTED.

THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE THAT THEY WANTED TO DO WITH THESE SPACECRAFT,

WHICH WAS MAKE BETTER MAPS FOR NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

announcer: TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY

AND ITS EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES,

PLEASE VISIT US ONLINE AT:

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