GWEN: THE WORLD SEEMS TO BE IN UPROAR.
UPROAR.
WE EXPLAIN WHAT WE KNOW AND WHAT WE EXPLAIN WHAT WE KNOW AND WHAT WE DON'T.
WE DON'T.
TONIGHT ON "WASHINGTON WEEK" -- TONIGHT ON "WASHINGTON WEEK" -- >> POINT OUT THE OBVIOUS.
>> POINT OUT THE OBVIOUS.
WE LIVE IN A CPLEXOM WORLD AND WE LIVE IN A CPLEXOM WORLD AND AT A CHALLENGING TIME.
AT A CHALLENGING TIME.
GWEN: AND THAT WAS BEFORE THIS GWEN: AND THAT WAS BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.
HAPPENED.
>> SHOT DOWN, NOT AN ACCIDENT.
>> SHOT DOWN, NOT AN ACCIDENT.
BLOWN OUT OF THE SKY.
BLOWN OUT OF THE SKY.
GWEN: AND BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.
GWEN: AND BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.
[EXPLOSION] [EXPLOSION] GWEN: A GROUND WAR FROM GAZA.
GWEN: A GROUND WAR FROM GAZA.
>> NOW WE HAVE ROCKETS AND WE >> NOW WE HAVE ROCKETS AND WE HAVE TO DEFEND OURSELVES.
HAVE TO DEFEND OURSELVES.
GWEN: AS THE CRISIS IN UKRAINE GWEN: AS THE CRISIS IN UKRAINE CONTINUES TO BUILD, THE CONTINUES TO BUILD, THE PRESIDENT AND HIS U.N. PRESIDENT AND HIS U.N.
AMBASSADOR POINTED THE FINGER AMBASSADOR POINTED THE FINGER SQUARELY AT RUSSIA.
SQUARELY AT RUSSIA.
>> WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE HEAVILY >> WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE HEAVILY ARM AND WOULD THEY ARE TRAINED ARM AND WOULD THEY ARE TRAINED AND WE KNOW THAT THAT'S NOT AN AND WE KNOW THAT THAT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT.
ACCIDENT.
THAT IS HAPPENING BECAUSE OF THAT IS HAPPENING BECAUSE OF RUSSIAN SUPPORT.
RUSSIAN SUPPORT.
>> RUSSIA CAN END THIS WAR.
>> RUSSIA CAN END THIS WAR.
RUSSIA MUST END THIS WAR.
RUSSIA MUST END THIS WAR.
GWEN: QUARKTS IN ROCKETS GWEN: QUARKTS IN ROCKETS IN ISRAEL AND UNCERTAINTY IN ISRAEL AND UNCERTAINTY EVERYWHERE, WE EXAMINE U.S.
EVERYWHERE, WE EXAMINE U.S. OPTION.
OPTION.
COVERING THE WEEK'S RAPIDLY COVERING THE WEEK'S RAPIDLY O-- DEVELOPING ISSUES -- O-- DEVELOPING ISSUES -- MICHAEL CROWLEY OF "TIME" MICHAEL CROWLEY OF "TIME" MAGAZINE.
MAGAZINE.
YOLANDE KNELL, MAGAZINE EDITOR YOLANDE KNELL, MAGAZINE EDITOR OF "TORN POLICY MAGAZINE" ALEXIS OF "TORN POLICY MAGAZINE" ALEXIS SIMENDINGER, OF SIMENDINGER, OF REALCLEARPOLITICS AND JOHN REALCLEARPOLITICS AND JOHN HARWOOD OF CNBC AND "THE NEW HARWOOD OF CNBC AND "THE NEW YORK TIMES."
YORK TIMES."
>> AWARD-WINNING REPORTING AND >> AWARD-WINNING REPORTING AND ANALYSIS.
ANALYSIS.
COVERING HISTORY AS IT HAPPENS.
COVERING HISTORY AS IT HAPPENS.
LIVE FROM OUR NATION'S CAPITAL, LIVE FROM OUR NATION'S CAPITAL, THIS IS "WASHINGTON WEEK WITH THIS IS "WASHINGTON WEEK WITH GWEN IFILL".
ONCE AGAIN, MODERATOR GWEN IFILL.
IFILL.
GWEN: GOOD EVENING.
GWEN: GOOD EVENING.
FAMILIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE IN FAMILIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE IN MOURNING AS CONFLICT CLAIMS MOURNING AS CONFLICT CLAIMS INNOCENT LIVES FROM THE NETHER INNOCENT LIVES FROM THE NETHER AND, IN UKRAINE, IN ISRAEL AND AND, IN UKRAINE, IN ISRAEL AND GAZA.
GAZA.
THE WARS HAVE SPRUNG FROM THE WARS HAVE SPRUNG FROM DEEP-SEATED DISAGREEMENT, THE DEEP-SEATED DISAGREEMENT, THE FRUIT OF FAILED CEASE-FIRES, FRUIT OF FAILED CEASE-FIRES, COLLAPSED NEGOTIATIONS, LACK OF COLLAPSED NEGOTIATIONS, LACK OF POLITICAL WILL AND PROGRAMS POLITICAL WILL AND PROGRAMS SIMPLE MISJUDGMENT.
SIMPLE MISJUDGMENT.
IT HAS PLUNGED THE UNITED STATES IT HAS PLUNGED THE UNITED STATES INTO MULTIPLE FOREIGN POLICY INTO MULTIPLE FOREIGN POLICY STANDOFFS ABROAD.
STANDOFFS ABROAD.
AFTER NEARLY 300 DIED WHEN AN AFTER NEARLY 300 DIED WHEN AN AIRLINER WAS SHOT DOWN OVER AIRLINER WAS SHOT DOWN OVER UKRAINE, PRESIDENT OBAMA WARNED UKRAINE, PRESIDENT OBAMA WARNED TODAY ABOUT JUMPING TO TODAY ABOUT JUMPING TO CONCLUSION BUT HE AND HIS CONCLUSION BUT HE AND HIS AMBASSADOR SUGGESTED THAT AMBASSADOR SUGGESTED THAT RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN WAS COMPLICIT IN THE TRAGEDY.
WAS COMPLICIT IN THE TRAGEDY.
>> IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THESE >> IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THESE SEPARATISTS TO FUNCTION THE WAY SEPARATISTS TO FUNCTION THE WAY THEY'RE FUNCTIONING, TO HAVE THE THEY'RE FUNCTIONING, TO HAVE THE EQUIPMENT THAT THEY HAVE, SET EQUIPMENT THAT THEY HAVE, SET ASIDE WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH ASIDE WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH RESPECT TO THE MALAYSIAN RESPECT TO THE MALAYSIAN AIRLINES, A GROUP OF SEPARATISTS AIRLINES, A GROUP OF SEPARATISTS CAN'T SHUT DOWN MILITARY CAN'T SHUT DOWN MILITARY TRANSP SHOOT DOWN TRANSP SHOOT DOWN FIGHTER JETS WITHOUT FIGHTER JETS WITHOUT SOPHISTICATED TRAINING AND SOPHISTICATED TRAINING AND EQUIPMENT AND THAT IS COMING EQUIPMENT AND THAT IS COMING FROM RUSSIA.
FROM RUSSIA.
>> MOST MEMBERS OF THE >> MOST MEMBERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAVE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAVE BEEN WARN FOR MONTHS ABOUT THE BEEN WARN FOR MONTHS ABOUT THE DEVASTATION THAT WOULD COME IF DEVASTATION THAT WOULD COME IF RUSSIA DID NOT STOP WAIT RUSSIA DID NOT STOP WAIT STARTED.
STARTED.
GWEN: FOR THE PRESIDENT, THAT GWEN: FOR THE PRESIDENT, THAT WAS RELATIVELY TOUGH TALK.
WAS RELATIVELY TOUGH TALK.
DOES THAT GET US PAST SANCTIONS?
DOES THAT GET US PAST SANCTIONS?
>> I'M NOT SURE AND I'M NOT SURE >> I'M NOT SURE AND I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH MORE SANCTIONS WE'RE HOW MUCH MORE SANCTIONS WE'RE GOING TO SEE.
GOING TO SEE.
THE QUESTION IS WILL THE THE QUESTION IS WILL THE REVULSION LEAD TO REAL ACTION REVULSION LEAD TO REAL ACTION THAT EUROPE HAS BEEN VERY THAT EUROPE HAS BEEN VERY HESITANT TO TAKE.
HESITANT TO TAKE.
EVEN THOUGH BEFORE THIS TRAGEDY EVEN THOUGH BEFORE THIS TRAGEDY THE DEATH TOLL WAS MOUNTING.
THE DEATH TOLL WAS MOUNTING.
CLOSE TO 500 KILL AND WOULD WELL CLOSE TO 500 KILL AND WOULD WELL OVER 1,000 INJURED IN THIS OVER 1,000 INJURED IN THIS CONFLICT.
CONFLICT.
THE EUROPEANS STILL FEEL THEIR THE EUROPEANS STILL FEEL THEIR ECONOMIES ARE EXTREMELY FRAGILE ECONOMIES ARE EXTREMELY FRAGILE AND ARE WARY OF TAKING ACTION AND ARE WARY OF TAKING ACTION THAT COULD NOT -- KNOCK THEM THAT COULD NOT -- KNOCK THEM BACK INTO A -- RECESSION.
BACK INTO A -- RECESSION.
I DON'T THINK YOU'LL SEE ANYMORE I DON'T THINK YOU'LL SEE ANYMORE -- ANYTHING MORE THAN SANCTIONS.
-- ANYTHING MORE THAN SANCTIONS.
THERE HAVE BEEN CALLS, THERE HAVE BEEN CALLS, ESPECIALLY FROM REPUBLICANS THAT ESPECIALLY FROM REPUBLICANS THAT WE SHOULD START ARMING WE SHOULD START ARMING UKRAINIANS.
UKRAINIANS.
I DON'T THINK IT'S A GOING TO I DON'T THINK IT'S A GOING TO HAPPEN.
HAPPEN.
A LOT OF REVULSION.
A LOT OF REVULSION.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE REAL I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE REAL FOLLOW-UP ACTION IS GOING TO BE.
FOLLOW-UP ACTION IS GOING TO BE.
GWEN: ARE THE WHITE HOUSE PEOPLE GWEN: ARE THE WHITE HOUSE PEOPLE SAYING WE HAVE AN OPENING NOW TO SAYING WE HAVE AN OPENING NOW TO GET THE WORLD'S ATTENTION ON GET THE WORLD'S ATTENTION ON SOMETHING THEY HAD TURNED AWAY SOMETHING THEY HAD TURNED AWAY FROM?
FROM?
>> THE RHETORIC LAST NIGHT TART >> THE RHETORIC LAST NIGHT TART STARTED TO BE IN THAT DIRECTION.
STARTED TO BE IN THAT DIRECTION.
CAN WE FIND OPPORTUNITY OUT OF CAN WE FIND OPPORTUNITY OUT OF TRAGEDY?
TRAGEDY?
YOU COULD HEAR IN THE YOU COULD HEAR IN THE PRESIDENT'S REMARKS, HE'S PRESIDENT'S REMARKS, HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE ONLY WAY OUT TALKING ABOUT THE ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS WAS A DIPLOMATIC OF THIS WAS A DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION AND COMING BACK TO THAT SOLUTION AND COMING BACK TO THAT MESSAGE.
MESSAGE.
I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING THAT HE WAS EMPHASIZING ALMOST THAT HE WAS EMPHASIZING ALMOST AS IF HE WANTED EUROPEAN ALLIES AS IF HE WANTED EUROPEAN ALLIES TO PAY ATTENTION.
TO PAY ATTENTION.
HE TALKED ABOUT HEAD SNAPPING, HE TALKED ABOUT HEAD SNAPPING, WALK-UP -- WAKE-UP CALM.
WALK-UP -- WAKE-UP CALM.
THAT THIS CANNOT BE CONTAINED THAT THIS CANNOT BE CONTAINED AND HE TALKED ABOUT THE AND HE TALKED ABOUT THE REPERCUSSIONS.
REPERCUSSIONS.
HE ENDED UP TODAY TALKING TO HE ENDED UP TODAY TALKING TO SOME OF EUROPEAN SOME OF EUROPEAN COMPATRIOTS, INCLUDING ANGELA COMPATRIOTS, INCLUDING ANGELA MERKEL, THE CHANCELLOR OF MERKEL, THE CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY AND THE PRIME MINISTER GERMANY AND THE PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND CAMERON SAID WE NEEDED TO SEEK CAMERON SAID WE NEEDED TO SEEK JUSTICE AND THE PRESIDENT AND JUSTICE AND THE PRESIDENT AND MERKEL SUGGESTED THAT THERE'S MERKEL SUGGESTED THAT THERE'S STILL A DIFFERENCE IN THE GAP IN STILL A DIFFERENCE IN THE GAP IN HOW TO PURSUE THE RESULT.
HOW TO PURSUE THE RESULT.
GWEN: THE PRESIDENT ALWAYS SEEM GWEN: THE PRESIDENT ALWAYS SEEM TO GO FOR INTERNATIONAL ACTION, TO GO FOR INTERNATIONAL ACTION, TO MAKE SURE THE UNITED STATES TO MAKE SURE THE UNITED STATES IS MAYBE LEADING THE CHARGE BUT IS MAYBE LEADING THE CHARGE BUT NOT BY ITSELF.
NOT BY ITSELF.
IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT, IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT, THAT DOES THIS MOMENT CALL FOR THAT DOES THIS MOMENT CALL FOR THAT?
THAT?
EVEN CONTROL OF THE CRASH SITE EVEN CONTROL OF THE CRASH SITE SEEMS TO BE AN OPEN QUESTION.
SEEMS TO BE AN OPEN QUESTION.
>> I THINK THE EVENT ITSELF IS >> I THINK THE EVENT ITSELF IS WHAT'S GOING TO DRIVE THE CHANGE WHAT'S GOING TO DRIVE THE CHANGE AND I'M A LITTLE MORE OPTIMISTIC AND I'M A LITTLE MORE OPTIMISTIC I THINK THAN MICHAEL THAT THIS I THINK THAN MICHAEL THAT THIS IS GOING TO CHANGE THE GAME.
IS GOING TO CHANGE THE GAME.
A SHOCK THE CONSCIOUS EVENT LIKE A SHOCK THE CONSCIOUS EVENT LIKE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT, I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT, I THINK EVEN FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN AND EVEN FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN AND RUSSIANS WHO REWARDED HIM AND RUSSIANS WHO REWARDED HIM AND SOME OF HIS TRUCULENCE WITH SOME OF HIS TRUCULENCE WITH RESPECT TO UKRAINE WITH PRETTY RESPECT TO UKRAINE WITH PRETTY ROBUST POPULARITY RATINGS.
ROBUST POPULARITY RATINGS.
EVERYBODY HAS TO TAKE A SECOND EVERYBODY HAS TO TAKE A SECOND LOOK WHEN YOU LOOK AT A CIVILIAN LOOK WHEN YOU LOOK AT A CIVILIAN AIRLINER FULL OF 300 INNOCENT AIRLINER FULL OF 300 INNOCENT PEOPLE BEING SHOT DOWN IN THIS PEOPLE BEING SHOT DOWN IN THIS MANNER.
MANNER.
I THINK IT CHANGES EVERYBODY'S I THINK IT CHANGES EVERYBODY'S CALCULATION AND YES, IT MAY TAKE CALCULATION AND YES, IT MAY TAKE TIME, MAY TAKE AN INVESTIGATION TIME, MAY TAKE AN INVESTIGATION AND ROCK-SOLID PROOF OF EXACTLY AND ROCK-SOLID PROOF OF EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AND ONCE THAT WHAT HAPPENED AND ONCE THAT HAPPENS AND IF IT CONFIRMS WHAT HAPPENS AND IF IT CONFIRMS WHAT WE SUSPECT, WHICH IS SEPARATISTS WE SUSPECT, WHICH IS SEPARATISTS ARMED AND TRAINED BY RUSSIA SHOT ARMED AND TRAINED BY RUSSIA SHOT THIS PLANE -- PLANE DOWN, THIS PLANE -- PLANE DOWN, PROGRAMS BY ACCIDENT IF NOT ON PROGRAMS BY ACCIDENT IF NOT ON PURPOSE.
PURPOSE.
I THINK IT WILL CHANGE THE I THINK IT WILL CHANGE THE CALCULUS AND PERHAPS MAKE EVEN CALCULUS AND PERHAPS MAKE EVEN PUTIN RECONSIDER.
PUTIN RECONSIDER.
GWEN: THE REACTION SO FAR HAS GWEN: THE REACTION SO FAR HAS BEEN THIS IS UKRAINE'S FAULT.
BEEN THIS IS UKRAINE'S FAULT.
THIS WAS OVER THEIR TERRITORY THIS WAS OVER THEIR TERRITORY AND EVERYONE IS JUMPING TO AND EVERYONE IS JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS IN EVEN SUGGESTING CONCLUSIONS IN EVEN SUGGESTING WE'RE RESPONSIBLE.
WE'RE RESPONSIBLE.
WHAT DO THE FACTS TELL US?
WHAT DO THE FACTS TELL US?
>> THE FACTS SEEM HARMED TO >> THE FACTS SEEM HARMED TO DISPUTE.
DISPUTE.
THIS WAS A VERY SOPHISTICATED THIS WAS A VERY SOPHISTICATED ROCKET.
ROCKET.
IT'S DIFFICULT TO FIRE AND TRACK IT'S DIFFICULT TO FIRE AND TRACK A PLANE WITH THIS KIND OF A PLANE WITH THIS KIND OF SYSTEM.
SYSTEM.
THE NOTION THAT THIS WAS RANDOM THE NOTION THAT THIS WAS RANDOM THUGS -- IT IS INTERESTING, THUGS -- IT IS INTERESTING, THOUGH.
THOUGH.
VLADIMIR PUTIN UP UNTIL NOW HAS VLADIMIR PUTIN UP UNTIL NOW HAS BEEN VERY CAREFUL IN WHAT HE'S BEEN VERY CAREFUL IN WHAT HE'S AND CONE.
AND CONE.
I TEND TO AGREE BE WITH JOHN.
I TEND TO AGREE BE WITH JOHN.
HE DOES NOT LIKE TO BE SEEN AS HE DOES NOT LIKE TO BE SEEN AS DOING THINGS IN RESPONSE TO DOING THINGS IN RESPONSE TO WESTERN PRESSURE.
WESTERN PRESSURE.
WE MAY WANT TO BE IN THIS WE MAY WANT TO BE IN THIS CORNER.
CORNER.
HE MADE HIMSELF FEEL LIKE HE'S HE MADE HIMSELF FEEL LIKE HE'S ALIED HIMSELF WITH THE THUGS BUT ALIED HIMSELF WITH THE THUGS BUT HE NEVER WANTS TO APPEAR WEAK.
HE NEVER WANTS TO APPEAR WEAK.
IN A WEIRD WAY THE MORE THE U.S.
IN A WEIRD WAY THE MORE THE U.S. CITIZEN YOU HAVE TO STOP THIS, CITIZEN YOU HAVE TO STOP THIS, THE LESS LIKELY HE MAY BE TO DO THE LESS LIKELY HE MAY BE TO DO THAT.
THAT.
GWEN: MICHAEL, WHERE'S THE KIEV GWEN: MICHAEL, WHERE'S THE KIEV GOVERNMENT IN ALL OF THIS.
GOVERNMENT IN ALL OF THIS.
THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THE THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PRO-RUSSIAN SEPARATISTS BUT PRO-RUSSIAN SEPARATISTS BUT WHERE IS THE NEW PRESIDENT?
WHERE IS THE NEW PRESIDENT?
>> WHAT THE PRESIDENT WOULD LIKE >> WHAT THE PRESIDENT WOULD LIKE IS TO NEGOTIATE SOME KIND OF A IS TO NEGOTIATE SOME KIND OF A SOLUTION.
SOLUTION.
WHAT UKRAINE GOT IN THEIR LAST WHAT UKRAINE GOT IN THEIR LAST ELECTION WAS A MAN WHO HAS A ELECTION WAS A MAN WHO HAS A DECENT RELATIONSHIP WITH PUTIN DECENT RELATIONSHIP WITH PUTIN AND MOSS COW.
AND MOSS COW.
HE'S NOT FULLY IN THE WESTERN HE'S NOT FULLY IN THE WESTERN CAMP OR IN THE EASTERN CAMP SO CAMP OR IN THE EASTERN CAMP SO TO SPEAK.
TO SPEAK.
HE'S A GUY THAT'S KIND OF A HE'S A GUY THAT'S KIND OF A BRIDGE BETWEEN THE TWO WORLDS BRIDGE BETWEEN THE TWO WORLDS AND I YOU THOUGHT HE MIGHT BE AND I YOU THOUGHT HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH ABLE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH PUTIN.
PUTIN.
WHEN HE CAME INTO OFFICE RIGHT WHEN HE CAME INTO OFFICE RIGHT AWAY HE SAID HE WAS WILLING TO AWAY HE SAID HE WAS WILLING TO TALK BUT THERE'S BEEN VERY TALK BUT THERE'S BEEN VERY LITTLE TIME THAT MOSCOW THAT LITTLE TIME THAT MOSCOW THAT PUTIN HAS A REAL DIP LATIC PUTIN HAS A REAL DIP LATIC INTEREST.
INTEREST.
PUTIN SEEMS TO BE SEEKING AND PUTIN SEEMS TO BE SEEKING AND ENJOYING A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF ENJOYING A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF INSTABILITY, ANARCHY, INSTABILITY, ANARCHY, INTIMIDATION.
INTIMIDATION.
HE DOESN'T LOOK TO BE LOOKING HE DOESN'T LOOK TO BE LOOKING FOR A SIT DOWN AROUND THE TABLE FOR A SIT DOWN AROUND THE TABLE TYPE NEGOTIATION.
TYPE NEGOTIATION.
WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE HAS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS DONE HAS RESPONDED WITH FORCE AND RESPONDED WITH FORCE AND ESSENTIALLY CALLED OFF A ESSENTIALLY CALLED OFF A CEASE-FIRE 10 DAYS OR TWO WEEKS CEASE-FIRE 10 DAYS OR TWO WEEKS AGO AND STARTED GOING AFTER AGO AND STARTED GOING AFTER SEPARATISTS.
SEPARATISTS.
WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME IS THE WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME IS THE WAY IN WHICH THIS FELL OFF THE WAY IN WHICH THIS FELL OFF THE RADAR OF A LOT OF THE WORLD.
RADAR OF A LOT OF THE WORLD.
WE HAD ALL THESE OTHER CRY SAYS, WE HAD ALL THESE OTHER CRY SAYS, ISIS MARRING IN IRAQ AND THE ISIS MARRING IN IRAQ AND THE SITUATION -- MARCHING IN IRAQ SITUATION -- MARCHING IN IRAQ AND THE SITUATION IN GAZA.
AND THE SITUATION IN GAZA.
BUT THE VIOLENCE AND INSTABILITY BUT THE VIOLENCE AND INSTABILITY HAS GOTTEN MUCH WORSE.
HAS GOTTEN MUCH WORSE.
>> THERE HAVE BEEN FOUR DOWNED >> THERE HAVE BEEN FOUR DOWNED PLANES SINCE JUNE.
PLANES SINCE JUNE.
A DOWNED TRANSPORT PLANE JUNE A DOWNED TRANSPORT PLANE JUNE 13.
13.
A DOWNED HELICOPTER, A CARGO A DOWNED HELICOPTER, A CARGO PLANE AND NOW THIS DOWNED JET.
PLANE AND NOW THIS DOWNED JET.
SO THIS HAS BEEN PLAYING OUT SO THIS HAS BEEN PLAYING OUT WHILE WE WERE LOOKING ELSEWHERE?
WHILE WE WERE LOOKING ELSEWHERE?
>> IT'S LIKE A DRUMBEATING >> IT'S LIKE A DRUMBEATING LOUDER AND LOUDER BUT WE HAVE LOUDER AND LOUDER BUT WE HAVE MUSIC BLARING FROM THE MIDDLE MUSIC BLARING FROM THE MIDDLE EAST AND WE CAN'T EVEN HEAR IT.
EAST AND WE CAN'T EVEN HEAR IT.
SO THE CRISIS WE'RE FOCUSED ON SO THE CRISIS WE'RE FOCUSED ON HAS BEEN A SLOW BURN.
HAS BEEN A SLOW BURN.
GWEN: SO WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS GWEN: SO WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS HERE?
HERE?
THE PRESIDENT SEEMED TO SAY THE PRESIDENT SEEMED TO SAY THERE HAS TO BE AN INVESTIGATION THERE HAS TO BE AN INVESTIGATION AND AT SOME POINT THEN WE CAN AND AT SOME POINT THEN WE CAN DECIDE WHAT THE ACTION WOULD BE.
DECIDE WHAT THE ACTION WOULD BE.
WHETHER IT'S JUST HOPING THAT WHETHER IT'S JUST HOPING THAT PUTIN BACKS DOWN OR IS THERE PUTIN BACKS DOWN OR IS THERE SOMETHING WE CAN DO TO FORCE SOMETHING WE CAN DO TO FORCE THAT?
THAT?
>> THE SANCTION HAVE YOU IS >> THE SANCTION HAVE YOU IS INTERESTING.
INTERESTING.
THE GERMANS AND EUROPEANS ARE THE GERMANS AND EUROPEANS ARE NOT WITH US.
NOT WITH US.
THEIR FINANCIAL SYSTEMS ARE THEIR FINANCIAL SYSTEMS ARE INTERTWINED WITH RUSSIA.
INTERTWINED WITH RUSSIA.
THAT I DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE THAT I DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE PAIN OF A FULL CUTOFF.
PAIN OF A FULL CUTOFF.
WITH RUSSIA, THEY MAKE SO MUCH WITH RUSSIA, THEY MAKE SO MUCH MONEY FROM ENERGY.
MONEY FROM ENERGY.
THEY JUST SIGNED A $20 BILLION THEY JUST SIGNED A $20 BILLION OR $30 BILLION WITH CHINA.
OR $30 BILLION WITH CHINA.
IF BY SOME MIRACLE THE U.S.
IF BY SOME MIRACLE THE U.S. WOULD SAY WE'RE NOT BUYING WOULD SAY WE'RE NOT BUYING RUSSIAN GAS, THEY WILL SAY ALL RUSSIAN GAS, THEY WILL SAY ALL RIGHT, WE'LL SELL IT TO THE U.S.
RIGHT, WE'LL SELL IT TO THE U.S. RUSSIA IS IMMUNE BECAUSE OF RUSSIA IS IMMUNE BECAUSE OF CHINA AND OTHER COUNTRIES.
CHINA AND OTHER COUNTRIES.
>> I THINK THERE'S SUCH AN >> I THINK THERE'S SUCH AN INTERPLAY BETWEEN THREE THINGS.
INTERPLAY BETWEEN THREE THINGS.
ONE IS THE INVESTIGATION THAT ONE IS THE INVESTIGATION THAT TAKE PLACE AND WHAT THAT YIELDS.
TAKE PLACE AND WHAT THAT YIELDS.
THE SECOND IS A DIFFERENT THE SECOND IS A DIFFERENT CALCULATION BY EUROPEANS IN CALCULATION BY EUROPEANS IN LIGHT OF AN EVENT LIKE THIS AND LIGHT OF AN EVENT LIKE THIS AND A THIRD, YOU HAVE ASIA A THIRD, YOU HAVE ASIA IMPLICATED IN THIS BECAUSE IT'S IMPLICATED IN THIS BECAUSE IT'S A MALAYSIAN AIRLINE.
A MALAYSIAN AIRLINE.
WHICH MAKES IT MORE OF A GLOBAL WHICH MAKES IT MORE OF A GLOBAL STORY.
STORY.
AND THEN THE THIRD BEING PUTIN'S AND THEN THE THIRD BEING PUTIN'S DESIRE POTENTIALLY TO TAKE THE DESIRE POTENTIALLY TO TAKE THE SORT OF OFF RAMP THAT YOCHI SORT OF OFF RAMP THAT YOCHI REFERRED TO.
REFERRED TO.
ALL OF THOSE THIS MANGY CHANGE ALL OF THOSE THIS MANGY CHANGE THE EQUATION.
THE EQUATION.
GWEN: IS IT POSSIBLE THE WHITE GWEN: IS IT POSSIBLE THE WHITE HOUSE WILL KEEP ALL ITS EYES ON HOUSE WILL KEEP ALL ITS EYES ON THIS ISSUE AND NOTHING ELSE FOR THIS ISSUE AND NOTHING ELSE FOR NOW?
NOW?
>> THE PRESIDENT WAS TODAY >> THE PRESIDENT WAS TODAY TALKING ABOUT THE PATIENCE AND TALKING ABOUT THE PATIENCE AND AMERICA LEADING AND HAVING A AMERICA LEADING AND HAVING A PLACE IN THE WORLD TO LEAD.
PLACE IN THE WORLD TO LEAD.
IN SOME WAYS IF HE SAYS IT HE IN SOME WAYS IF HE SAYS IT HE HOPES IT WILL BE THE CASE.
HOPES IT WILL BE THE CASE.
BUT IN ALL OF THESE SITUATIONS BUT IN ALL OF THESE SITUATIONS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, HE SEEMS TO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, HE SEEMS TO BE URGING PATIENCE.
BE URGING PATIENCE.
HE TALKED TODAY ABOUT MONTHS OF HE TALKED TODAY ABOUT MONTHS OF TRYING TO TWHORK OUT.
TRYING TO TWHORK OUT.
HE TALKED ABOUT HOW PRESIDENT HE TALKED ABOUT HOW PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS -- HIS WORDS HAVEN'T PUTIN HAS -- HIS WORDS HAVEN'T BEEN HIS DEEDS ALL THE WAY BEEN HIS DEEDS ALL THE WAY THROUGH AND HE DIDN'T OFFER ANY THROUGH AND HE DIDN'T OFFER ANY SUGGESTION TODAY THAT HE SUGGESTION TODAY THAT HE EXPECTED THAT TO BE DIFFERENT.
EXPECTED THAT TO BE DIFFERENT.
BUT HE DID SAY THE CIRCUMSTANCES BUT HE DID SAY THE CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND HIM COULD BE DIFFERENT.
AROUND HIM COULD BE DIFFERENT.
GWEN: PERHAPS LOWERING GWEN: PERHAPS LOWERING EXPECTATIONS AT THE SAME TIME.
EXPECTATIONS AT THE SAME TIME.
IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT IF NOT FOR IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT IF NOT FOR THE SHOCK OF BODIES FALLEN FROM THE SHOCK OF BODIES FALLEN FROM THE SKY, THE GROUND WAR WITH THE SKY, THE GROUND WAR WITH ISRAEL'S BORDER WITH GAZA WOULD ISRAEL'S BORDER WITH GAZA WOULD HAVE BEEN THE WEEK'S MOST HAVE BEEN THE WEEK'S MOST UNSETTLING DEVELOPMENT AND UNSETTLING DEVELOPMENT AND TONIGHT, THAT, TOO, WAS AN TONIGHT, THAT, TOO, WAS AN OPEN-ENDED CONFLICT.
OPEN-ENDED CONFLICT.
THIS WAS ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER THIS WAS ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NATIA HUGH ON WEDNESDAY.
NATIA HUGH ON WEDNESDAY.
>> I BELIEVE THAT ALL MEMBERS OF >> I BELIEVE THAT ALL MEMBERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SHOULD UNEQUIVOCALLY CONDEMN SHOULD UNEQUIVOCALLY CONDEMN HAMAS AND ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO HAMAS AND ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF.
DEFEND ITSELF.
GWEN: THE NEXT DAY, MARGARET GWEN: THE NEXT DAY, MARGARET WARNER SPOKE TO THE PALESTINIAN WARNER SPOKE TO THE PALESTINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.
AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S. >> THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE OF WHO >> THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE OF WHO STARTED FIGURES, FIRED FIRST AND STARTED FIGURES, FIRED FIRST AND WHO REAT THEUATED.
WHO REAT THEUATED.
NOW THE MOST IMPORTANT TASK IS NOW THE MOST IMPORTANT TASK IS TO REACH A FORMULA ACCEPTABLE TO TO REACH A FORMULA ACCEPTABLE TO BOTH SIDES FOR A CEASE-FIRE.
BOTH SIDES FOR A CEASE-FIRE.
GWEN: AFTER THAT INTERVIEW GWEN: AFTER THAT INTERVIEW ENDED, THE GROUND WAR AGAIN ENDED, THE GROUND WAR AGAIN BEGAN.
BEGAN.
ONCE AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT IS ONCE AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT IS TIPTOEING THROUGH LAND MINES.
TIPTOEING THROUGH LAND MINES.
>> WE ARE HOPEFUL THAT ISRAEL >> WE ARE HOPEFUL THAT ISRAEL WILL CONTINUE TO APPROACH THIS WILL CONTINUE TO APPROACH THIS PROCESS IN A WAY THAT MINIMIZES PROCESS IN A WAY THAT MINIMIZES CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND THAT ALL CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND THAT ALL OF US ARE WORKING HARD TO RETURN OF US ARE WORKING HARD TO RETURN TO THE CEASE-FIRE THAT WAS TO THE CEASE-FIRE THAT WAS REACHED IN NOVEMBER OF 2012.
REACHED IN NOVEMBER OF 2012.
GWEN: THE CEASE-FIRE OF 2012.
GWEN: THE CEASE-FIRE OF 2012.
WISHFUL THINKING OR IS THAT WISHFUL THINKING OR IS THAT POSSIBLE?
POSSIBLE?
>> I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE.
>> I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE.
THIS IS NOT A WAR THAT EITHER THIS IS NOT A WAR THAT EITHER SIDE WANTED.
SIDE WANTED.
ISRAEL HAS FOUGHT WARS WITH ISRAEL HAS FOUGHT WARS WITH ENEMIES IN GAZA AND LEBANON ENEMIES IN GAZA AND LEBANON WHERE IT DID WANT TO GO IN THAT WHERE IT DID WANT TO GO IN THAT WAS NOT THE CASE HERE.
WAS NOT THE CASE HERE.
HAMAS HAD NO DESIRE TOO.
HAMAS HAD NO DESIRE TOO.
IN A WAY THEY'RE LIKE TWO ACTORS IN A WAY THEY'RE LIKE TWO ACTORS IN ROLES WHO REALLY DON'T WANT IN ROLES WHO REALLY DON'T WANT TO PLAY ANYMORE.
TO PLAY ANYMORE.
HAMAS HAS TO GET SOMETHING.
HAMAS HAS TO GET SOMETHING.
THEY FELT THEY DIDN'T GET OUT OF THEY FELT THEY DIDN'T GET OUT OF THE CEASE-FIRE WITH ISRAEL.
THE CEASE-FIRE WITH ISRAEL.
SO HAMAS IS LOCKED INTO A SO HAMAS IS LOCKED INTO A SITUATION WHERE THEY NEED A WIN.
SITUATION WHERE THEY NEED A WIN.
ISRAEL MAY NOT GET IT EITHER.
ISRAEL MAY NOT GET IT EITHER.
GWEN: YOU SPENT THE GROUND IN T GWEN: YOU SPENT THE GROUND IN T AND I WONDER IF THIS FEELS AND I WONDER IF THIS FEELS DIFFERENT TO YOU?
DIFFERENT TO YOU?
>> UNFORTUNATELY THIS FEELS >> UNFORTUNATELY THIS FEELS GRIMLY THE SAME WITH ISRAEL AND GRIMLY THE SAME WITH ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS, IT'S SORT OF PALESTINIANS, IT'S SORT OF PEAK-VALLEY, PEAK-VALLEY AND PEAK-VALLEY, PEAK-VALLEY AND FUNDAMENTALLY NOTHING EVER FUNDAMENTALLY NOTHING EVER CHANGES.
CHANGES.
IT'S ALMOST LIKE A SCRIPT.
IT'S ALMOST LIKE A SCRIPT.
YOU CAN SEE THE BOMBS AND YOU CAN SEE THE BOMBS AND ROCKETS AND DEATHS ON BOTH ROCKETS AND DEATHS ON BOTH SIDES.
SIDES.
250 ROUGHLY PALESTINIANS KILLED.
250 ROUGHLY PALESTINIANS KILLED.
A FEW ISRAELIS KILLED.
A FEW ISRAELIS KILLED.
YOU SEE THE NUMBERS RILES BUT YOU SEE THE NUMBERS RILES BUT NOTHING UNDERLYING CHANGES.
NOTHING UNDERLYING CHANGES.
>> I'M THINKING BACK SO WHAT WE >> I'M THINKING BACK SO WHAT WE WERE SAYING ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN WERE SAYING ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN NOT WANTING TO BE SEEN AS NOT WANTING TO BE SEEN AS BACKING DOWN, SHOWING WEAKNESS BACKING DOWN, SHOWING WEAKNESS AND I THINK THAT DYNAMIC IS VERY AND I THINK THAT DYNAMIC IS VERY MUCH AT PLAY HERE.
MUCH AT PLAY HERE.
BOTHSIDES DON'T WANT TO BE THE BOTHSIDES DON'T WANT TO BE THE ONE THAT'S CONCEDING, THAT'S ONE THAT'S CONCEDING, THAT'S STEPPING BACK.
STEPPING BACK.
A LOT OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH A LOT OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH DOMESTIC PRESSURES.
DOMESTIC PRESSURES.
OT SHOWING WEAKNESS TO OT SHOWING WEAKNESS TO CONSTITUENCIES AND BEING TAKEN CONSTITUENCIES AND BEING TAKEN OVER BY MORE AGGRESSIVE OR OVER BY MORE AGGRESSIVE OR MILITANT FACTIONS.
MILITANT FACTIONS.
NETANYAHU WAS CRISISED FOR NOT NETANYAHU WAS CRISISED FOR NOT MOUNTING A GROUND MISSION MOUNTING A GROUND MISSION BEFORE.
BEFORE.
HILLY CLINTON SAID IN 2012 THAT HILLY CLINTON SAID IN 2012 THAT OUR ANALYSIS WAS THE D.B.
WAS OUR ANALYSIS WAS THE D.B.
WAS BEING PUSHED INTO A GROUND BEING PUSHED INTO A GROUND INVASION THAT HE DIDN'T WANT AND INVASION THAT HE DIDN'T WANT AND NEEDED AN EXIT RAMP.
NEEDED AN EXIT RAMP.
THAT WAS WHY THE PRESIDENT THAT WAS WHY THE PRESIDENT DECIDED TO SEND HER END AND DECIDED TO SEND HER END AND STICK HIS NECK OUT A LITTLE BIT STICK HIS NECK OUT A LITTLE BIT AND HAVE AN AMERICAN BROKER AND HAVE AN AMERICAN BROKER TROOPS.
TROOPS.
GWEN: IF THAT'S TRUE THEN WASN'T GWEN: IF THAT'S TRUE THEN WASN'T THERE A FAILURE IN THIS THERE A FAILURE IN THIS ADMINISTRATION TO PROVIDE AN ADMINISTRATION TO PROVIDE AN EXIT RAMP OR WAS IT UNAVOIDABLE?
EXIT RAMP OR WAS IT UNAVOIDABLE?
>> IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHAT >> IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHAT YOU HEAR THE PRESIDENT TALKING YOU HEAR THE PRESIDENT TALKING ABOUT IS THAT HE WANTS THE ABOUT IS THAT HE WANTS THE TO BE ABLE TO TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THAT OFFRAMP, WHETHER PROVIDE THAT OFFRAMP, WHETHER IT'S THE SITUATION WITH PUTIN -- IT'S THE SITUATION WITH PUTIN -- HE'S USED THAT TERM, OFF RAMP.
HE'S USED THAT TERM, OFF RAMP.
SEEMS HE UNDERSTANDS OR HAS SEEMS HE UNDERSTANDS OR HAS RECOGNIZED RELUCTANTLY THAT WITH RECOGNIZED RELUCTANTLY THAT WITH NETANYAHU IT'S NOT THERE, IT'S NETANYAHU IT'S NOT THERE, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THERE.
NOT GOING TO BE THERE.
SO THE WAY HE WAS TALKING ABOUT SO THE WAY HE WAS TALKING ABOUT IT FOOD WAS ALMOST A SECONDARY IT FOOD WAS ALMOST A SECONDARY -- TODAY WAS ALMOST A SECONDARY -- TODAY WAS ALMOST A SECONDARY CAUTION.
CAUTION.
WE UNDERSTAND THIS IS WHAT YOU WE UNDERSTAND THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AND YOU WANT TO FOCUS WANT TO DO AND YOU WANT TO FOCUS ON THE TUNNELS BUT -- AND HOPING ON THE TUNNELS BUT -- AND HOPING THAT NETANYAHU AND THE THAT NETANYAHU AND THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO EXERCISE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO EXERCISE A LEVEL OF SELF CONTROL ON THEIR A LEVEL OF SELF CONTROL ON THEIR OWN.
OWN.
GWEN: THERE WAS A -- THERE WERE GWEN: THERE WAS A -- THERE WERE A LOT OF QUESTIONS RAISED ABOUT A LOT OF QUESTIONS RAISED ABOUT KERRY'S WHAT IS WILDLY KERRY'S WHAT IS WILDLY CONSIDERED TO BE A NON-BROKERED CONSIDERED TO BE A NON-BROKERED PEACE SOLUTION.
PEACE SOLUTION.
IS THAT OPTIMISTIC?
IS THAT OPTIMISTIC?
>> I THINK IT'S PRETTY HARD TO >> I THINK IT'S PRETTY HARD TO BE OPTIMISTIC AT THIS POINT.
BE OPTIMISTIC AT THIS POINT.
YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT A NEW TURN YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT A NEW TURN IN THE ROAD COULD LEAD TO BUT I IN THE ROAD COULD LEAD TO BUT I WOULDN'T BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT WOULDN'T BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THAT.
THAT.
IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO BLAME IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO BLAME THE ADMINISTRATION GIVEN THE THE ADMINISTRATION GIVEN THE RECURRENT PATTERN THAT YOCHI RECURRENT PATTERN THAT YOCHI MENTIONED.
MENTIONED.
IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR A VERY, IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.
VERY LONG TIME.
GWEN: IS THERE A WAY, DOES THE GWEN: IS THERE A WAY, DOES THE U.S. HAVE A ROLE IN THIS?
U.S. HAVE A ROLE IN THIS?
AT WHAT POINT DOES THE WHITE AT WHAT POINT DOES THE WHITE HOUSE HAVE TO PLAY A ROLE, HOUSE HAVE TO PLAY A ROLE, WHETHER IT'S ONCE AGAIN WHETHER IT'S ONCE AGAIN ASSEMBLING AN INTERNATIONAL ASSEMBLING AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION OR NOT, OR STEP BACK COALITION OR NOT, OR STEP BACK AND LET IT PLAY OUT?
AND LET IT PLAY OUT?
>> ISRAEL DOESN'T SEEM TO WANT >> ISRAEL DOESN'T SEEM TO WANT THE U.S. TO BE PARTICULARLY THE U.S. TO BE PARTICULARLY INVOLVED RIGHT NOW AND I THINK INVOLVED RIGHT NOW AND I THINK ONE HOPE OF THE ADMINISTRATION ONE HOPE OF THE ADMINISTRATION IS THAT AS THE ISRAELI IS THAT AS THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY AMBASSADOR TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY SAID, WE A HUGH HAS SAID, WE A HUGH HAS - NETANYAHU HAS SAID WE PAY EX - NETANYAHU HAS SAID WE PAY EX EXPAND THIS THEY WANT TO TAKE EXPAND THIS THEY WANT TO TAKE OUT SOME OF THE MISSILE SITES OUT SOME OF THE MISSILE SITES AND TUNNELS.
AND TUNNELS.
DAN: -- DAN: -- GWEN: THERE ARE ALSO DILEMMAS GWEN: THERE ARE ALSO DILEMMAS WITHIN DILEMMAS.
WITHIN DILEMMAS.
THE EGYPTIANS WERE NOT ABLE TO THE EGYPTIANS WERE NOT ABLE TO BROKER A DEAL BECAUSE OF THEIR BROKER A DEAL BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN PROBLEMS, NOT BECAUSE OF THE OWN PROBLEMS, NOT BECAUSE OF THE U.S. AT ALL.
U.S. AT ALL.
>> INTEREST CH IS INTERESTING.
>> INTEREST CH IS INTERESTING.
BACK IN 2012 YOU HAD MORSI, NOW BACK IN 2012 YOU HAD MORSI, NOW DEPOSED IN PRISON, VERY CLOSE TO DEPOSED IN PRISON, VERY CLOSE TO NETANYAHU.
NETANYAHU.
HE HAD THE CREDIBILITY TO SAY TO HE HAD THE CREDIBILITY TO SAY TO THEM YOU HAVE TO STOP.
THEM YOU HAVE TO STOP.
THERE HAS TO BE A DEAL AND HE THERE HAS TO BE A DEAL AND HE DID THAT.
DID THAT.
NOW THEY'VE BEEN BATTLING HAMAS NOW THEY'VE BEEN BATTLING HAMAS IN SINAI.
IN SINAI.
AND YOU HAVE HAMAS ENGAGED IN A AND YOU HAVE HAMAS ENGAGED IN A MILITARY WAR WITH ISRAEL.
MILITARY WAR WITH ISRAEL.
YOU HAD A MEDIATOR IN 2012, NOT YOU HAD A MEDIATOR IN 2012, NOT NOW.
NOW.
SO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, SO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, LESS TALK ABOUT MEETING FROM LESS TALK ABOUT MEETING FROM BEHIND, USING PROXIES AND BEHIND, USING PROXIES AND ALLIES.
ALLIES.
THE ALLIES WE'VE USED IN THE THE ALLIES WE'VE USED IN THE PAST ARE NOT THERE ANYMORE.
PAST ARE NOT THERE ANYMORE.
>> ONE OTHER OUTGROWTH OF THAT >> ONE OTHER OUTGROWTH OF THAT CHANGE AND THE EGYPT CONTACTS IS CHANGE AND THE EGYPT CONTACTS IS THAT ISRAEL SEES A CHANCE TO THAT ISRAEL SEES A CHANCE TO NAIL HAMAS HERE IN A WAY THEY NAIL HAMAS HERE IN A WAY THEY HOPE HAMAS MAY NOT BE ABLE TO HOPE HAMAS MAY NOT BE ABLE TO REBOUND FROM.
REBOUND FROM.
BECAUSE THE TUNNELS HAVE BEEN BECAUSE THE TUNNELS HAVE BEEN CUT OFF AND THE EGYPTIAN REGIME CUT OFF AND THE EGYPTIAN REGIME IS NOT ALLOWING THE FLOW OF ARMS IS NOT ALLOWING THE FLOW OF ARMS INTO GAZA.
INTO GAZA.
GWEN: THE PALESTINIANS ARE NOT GWEN: THE PALESTINIANS ARE NOT CRAZY ABOUT WHAT HAMAS IS DOING CRAZY ABOUT WHAT HAMAS IS DOING EITHER.
EITHER.
>> THAT'S RIGHT BUT THE ISSUE IS >> THAT'S RIGHT BUT THE ISSUE IS EGYPTIANS NOT ALLOWING THE RE- EGYPTIANS NOT ALLOWING THE RE- SUPPLY OF HAMAS.
SUPPLY OF HAMAS.
THE HOME AMONG ISRAELIS IS IF THE HOME AMONG ISRAELIS IS IF THEY CAN TAKE OUT A LOT OF THESE THEY CAN TAKE OUT A LOT OF THESE ROCKETS THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ROCKETS THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO REPLENISH THEM.
ABLE TO REPLENISH THEM.
I THINK THERE'S A SENSE THAT WE I THINK THERE'S A SENSE THAT WE KIND OF GOT THEM WHERE WE WANT KIND OF GOT THEM WHERE WE WANT THEM AND LET'S NOT LET UP.
THEM AND LET'S NOT LET UP.
GWEN: IS THERE A BACK CHANNEL GWEN: IS THERE A BACK CHANNEL WAY, HOWEVER, THAT EXISTS -- WE WAY, HOWEVER, THAT EXISTS -- WE SAW THE LEAD NEGOTIATOR TRYING SAW THE LEAD NEGOTIATOR TRYING TO GET PEOPLE BACK TO THE TABLE TO GET PEOPLE BACK TO THE TABLE AND SAY NEVER MIND.
AND SAY NEVER MIND.
IS THERE A BAT CHANNEL WAY THAT IS THERE A BAT CHANNEL WAY THAT THE WHITE HOUSE IS COUNTING ON THE WHITE HOUSE IS COUNTING ON TO FORCE OUTCOMES OR DOES THIS TO FORCE OUTCOMES OR DOES THIS TO PLAY ITS WAY OUT?
TO PLAY ITS WAY OUT?
>> WE KEEP COMING BACK TO THIS >> WE KEEP COMING BACK TO THIS TINY COUNTRY, QATAR, WHICH AT TINY COUNTRY, QATAR, WHICH AT BEST IS SOMEWHAT OF AN ALLY.
BEST IS SOMEWHAT OF AN ALLY.
THEY HAVE CLOSE TIES TO THEY HAVE CLOSE TIES TO HAPPENAS, EGYPT, AND US.
HAPPENAS, EGYPT, AND US.
IF THERE IS GOING TO BE A PROXY, IF THERE IS GOING TO BE A PROXY, IT WILL BE QATAR.
IT WILL BE QATAR.
THEY BROKERED A DEAL TO GET BACK THEY BROKERED A DEAL TO GET BACK BERG TALL AND HAVE BEEN BERG TALL AND HAVE BEEN NEGOTIATING WITH THE NEGOTIATING WITH THE AFGHANISTAN.
AFGHANISTAN.
>> I WAS TALKING TODAY TO A >> I WAS TALKING TODAY TO A FORMER OBAMA FOREIGN POLICY FORMER OBAMA FOREIGN POLICY ADMINISTRATION WHO SAID WE CAN ADMINISTRATION WHO SAID WE CAN LEAN A LITTLE BIT ON THE PEOPLE LEAN A LITTLE BIT ON THE PEOPLE OF QATAR AND THE TURKS.
OF QATAR AND THE TURKS.
>> THE TURKS, THE CONDEMNATION >> THE TURKS, THE CONDEMNATION OF ISRAELAR FROM OF ISRAELAR FROM THE ARAB WORLD HAS BEEN SILENT.
THE ARAB WORLD HAS BEEN SILENT.
THE FEELING MIGHT BE THAT TURKEY THE FEELING MIGHT BE THAT TURKEY HAS MILITARY AND ECONOMIC TIES HAS MILITARY AND ECONOMIC TIES TO ISRAEL.
TO ISRAEL.
THEY DO HAVE TRIES TO -- TIES TO THEY DO HAVE TRIES TO -- TIES TO HAMAS.
HAMAS.
HAT THEY COULD BE THE PROXY.
HAT THEY COULD BE THE PROXY.
>> WELL, IT'S -- IT'S JUST A >> WELL, IT'S -- IT'S JUST A TOUGH PROBLEM AND, YOU KNOW, IT TOUGH PROBLEM AND, YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED TOUGH IN 2012 BUT YOU DID LOOKED TOUGH IN 2012 BUT YOU DID HAVE THESE ACTORS WHO ALL SEEMED HAVE THESE ACTORS WHO ALL SEEMED TO HAVE INCENTIVES TO STEP IN TO HAVE INCENTIVES TO STEP IN AND YOU DON'T HAVE THAT NOW.
AND YOU DON'T HAVE THAT NOW.
I WISH I COULD SAY SOMETHING I WISH I COULD SAY SOMETHING PITHY ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO PITHY ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO WRAP UP BUT I DON'T SEE IT.
WRAP UP BUT I DON'T SEE IT.
IT COULD BE ONE OF THOSE IT COULD BE ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS -- THINK ABOUT THE SITUATIONS -- THINK ABOUT THE CASE OF THE MALAYSIAN JET OVER CASE OF THE MALAYSIAN JET OVER THE YOU KAREN -- UKRAINE.
THE YOU KAREN -- UKRAINE.
THE STORY WAS DOMINATED BY A THE STORY WAS DOMINATED BY A KIND OF A FREAK, HORRIBLE THING KIND OF A FREAK, HORRIBLE THING THAT HAPPENED THAT MOBILIZED THAT HAPPENED THAT MOBILIZED PUBLIC OPINION.
PUBLIC OPINION.
WILL ROCKETS LAND SOMEWHERE IN WILL ROCKETS LAND SOMEWHERE IN ISRAEL OR WILL AN ISRAELI AIR ISRAEL OR WILL AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE INFLICT SOME KIND OF STRIKE INFLICT SOME KIND OF DAMAGE THAT RIVETS THE WORLD AND DAMAGE THAT RIVETS THE WORLD AND CHANGES THE NARRATIVE, SO TO CHANGES THE NARRATIVE, SO TO SPEAK.
SPEAK.
THE NARRATIVE IN A CONFLICT LIKE THE NARRATIVE IN A CONFLICT LIKE THIS IS AS IMPORTANT AS A THIS IS AS IMPORTANT AS A CAMPAIGN NARRATIVE.
CAMPAIGN NARRATIVE.
GWEN: IN THE WAY YOU DISCUSS IT GWEN: IN THE WAY YOU DISCUSS IT IT SOUNDS LIKE THE WHITE HOUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE THE WHITE HOUSE HAS NO CONTROL OVER THIS HAS NO CONTROL OVER THIS NARRATIVE.
NARRATIVE.
AND THE PRESIDENT ICE CRITICS AND THE PRESIDENT ICE CRITICS SAY THAT HE SEEMS TOO PASSIVE IN SAY THAT HE SEEMS TOO PASSIVE IN ALL OF THIS.
ALL OF THIS.
HOW, THEN, DOES THE WHITE HOUSE HOW, THEN, DOES THE WHITE HOUSE PRIORITIZE WHAT'S IMPORTANT?
PRIORITIZE WHAT'S IMPORTANT?
>> THEY HAVEN'T LOOKED LIKE THEY >> THEY HAVEN'T LOOKED LIKE THEY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT THEMSELVES.
THEMSELVES.
I GUESS THAT'S THE BEST WAY I I GUESS THAT'S THE BEST WAY I CAN PUT IT.
CAN PUT IT.
THEY SEEM TO BE TACKLING EACH THEY SEEM TO BE TACKLING EACH ISSUE TRYING TO JUGGLE ALL AT ISSUE TRYING TO JUGGLE ALL AT ONCE.
ONCE.
I THINK THERE'S SOME INDICATION I THINK THERE'S SOME INDICATION WHEN YOU WATCH WHERE THEIR WHEN YOU WATCH WHERE THEIR ATTENTION IS GOING WHAT THEY PUT ATTENTION IS GOING WHAT THEY PUT ASIDE FOR THE MOMENT.
ASIDE FOR THE MOMENT.
THE PRESIDENT IS TALKING AND THE PRESIDENT IS TALKING AND TALKING, WHICH IS HIS NATURAL TALKING, WHICH IS HIS NATURAL INCLINATION, TO KEEP THE INCLINATION, TO KEEP THE DIALOGUE OPEN TO OUR U.S.
ALLIES DIALOGUE OPEN TO OUR U.S.
ALLIES AND FRIENDS.
AND FRIENDS.
BUT THE ANALYSIS DOESN'T SEEM TO BUT THE ANALYSIS DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY CLEARER, I WOULD ARGUE, BE ANY CLEARER, I WOULD ARGUE, TO PRESIDENT OBAMA OR EVEN TO PRESIDENT OBAMA OR EVEN SECRETARY OF STATE KERRY IN THE SECRETARY OF STATE KERRY IN THE SITUATION IN ISRAEL.
SITUATION IN ISRAEL.
GWEN: JOHN, THE WHITE HOUSE -- GWEN: JOHN, THE WHITE HOUSE -- THE PRESIDENT SAID EARLIER TODAY THE PRESIDENT SAID EARLIER TODAY THAT THIS HAS BEEN A THAT THIS HAS BEEN A HEAD-SNAPPING MOMENT.
HEAD-SNAPPING MOMENT.
I WONDER IF IT IS FOR THE WHITE I WONDER IF IT IS FOR THE WHITE HOUSE AS WELL AS FOR THE REST OF HOUSE AS WELL AS FOR THE REST OF US WHO ARE CITIZENS OF THE WORLD US WHO ARE CITIZENS OF THE WORLD WATCHING PLANES FALL FROM THE WATCHING PLANES FALL FROM THE SKY, WATCHING TANKS AND LITTLE SKY, WATCHING TANKS AND LITTLE BOYS BEING KILLED ON BEACHES AND BOYS BEING KILLED ON BEACHES AND ALL OAF THESE HORRIBLE THINGS ALL OAF THESE HORRIBLE THINGS WE'VE SEEN THIS WEEK.
WE'VE SEEN THIS WEEK.
IS IT A HEAD-SNAPPING MOMENT FOR IS IT A HEAD-SNAPPING MOMENT FOR THE WHITE HOUSE?
THE WHITE HOUSE?
>> THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
>> THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THE WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THE YOUNG CHILDREN FROM CENTRAL YOUNG CHILDREN FROM CENTRAL AMERICA COMING TO THE AMERICAN AMERICA COMING TO THE AMERICAN BORDER AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE BORDER AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE PEOPLE?
PEOPLE?
IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT THAT YOU HAVE SO MUCH CHAOS AND THAT YOU HAVE SO MUCH CHAOS AND DISORDER IN THE WORLD.
DISORDER IN THE WORLD.
YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO'S YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO'S COMMITTED AS A MATTER OF POLICY COMMITTED AS A MATTER OF POLICY TO NOT INTERVENING MILITARILY TO NOT INTERVENING MILITARILY ABROAD, SO IT IS HOW HE ABROAD, SO IT IS HOW HE REACERTIFICATES CONTROL AND REACERTIFICATES CONTROL AND MANAGES THIS SET OF CRY SAYS MANAGES THIS SET OF CRY SAYS ISN'T EXACTLY CLEAR.
ISN'T EXACTLY CLEAR.
GWEN: I FEEL LIKE WE'VE JUST GWEN: I FEEL LIKE WE'VE JUST SCRATCHED THE SURFACE BUT I HAVE SCRATCHED THE SURFACE BUT I HAVE A FEELING WE'RE GOING TO BE A FEELING WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR SOME TIME TALKING ABOUT THIS FOR SOME TIME TO COME.
TO COME.
WE'LL CONTINUES THIS WE'LL CONTINUES THIS CONVERSATION ON LINE ON THE CONVERSATION ON LINE ON THE "WASHINGTON WEEK" WEBCAST EXTRA, "WASHINGTON WEEK" WEBCAST EXTRA, WHICH STREAMS RIGHT AFTER WE GO WHICH STREAMS RIGHT AFTER WE GO OFF THE AIR AND YOU CAN FIND IT OFF THE AIR AND YOU CAN FIND IT ALL WEEK LONG ON THE WEBSITE.
ALL WEEK LONG ON THE WEBSITE.
THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO SAY.
THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO SAY.
KEEP UP WITH DEVELOPMENTS WITH KEEP UP WITH DEVELOPMENTS WITH ME AND JUDY WOODRUFF EVERY NIGHT ME AND JUDY WOODRUFF EVERY NIGHT ON THE PBS NEWSOUR HAND WE'LL ON THE PBS NEWSOUR HAND WE'LL SEE YOU EVERY WEEK HERE.
SEE YOU EVERY WEEK HERE.
GOOD NIGHT.
