Boundaries

- I FIGURED OUT THAT ART WOULD BE THE PERFECT PLACE FOR ME

BECAUSE WHAT'S ENCOURAGED IS THE INVENTION OF LANGUAGES.

- MY GENERATION SEEMS TO STAND ON UNSTABLE GROUND,

AND THIS IS REFLECTED IN MY WORK IN VARIOUS, DIFFERENT WAYS.

- YOU SHOULD EXPRESS YOURSELF THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO BE.

GAY POLITICS, HUMAN RIGHT POLITICS, WHATEVER,

IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT BEING FREE.

- THESE IDEAS HAVE COME FROM, REALLY, PAINTING IDEAS,

YET THEY'RE DIMENSIONAL.

[ saw buzzing ]

- [ clicking tongue ]

I DON'T NEED TO MAKE SKETCHES OF THE SCULPTURES I MAKE

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENCE

BETWEEN PUTTING INK ON A PCE OF PAPER

AND GLUING LITTLE PCES OF CRYSTAL

ON PLEXIGLAS IN SPACE.

I DON'T DO DRAWINGS,

BECAUSE I HAVE OTHER MATERIALS THAT I FIND INTERESTING.

95% OF THE RELATIONSHIP I HAVE TO MY WORK

IS THROUGH PROCESS.

IT'S NOT AS A DISTANT OBJECT.

IT'S A MADE OBJECT.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF TRUSTING THE WORK,

TRUSTING THE MATERIAL, AND TRUSTING

THAT EVERY LITTLE STEP IS GONNA DICTATE THE NEXT ONE.

I HAVE TO GIVE IT A STRUCTURE.

THAT'S ON ME.

BUT THEN AT A CERTAIN POINT,

THE MATERIAL BEHAVES IN SUCH UNPREDICTABLE WAYS

THAT I FIND BEAUTIFUL.

[ sighs ]

I'M INTERESTED IN SCIENCE

THE SAME WAY I'M INTERESTED IN ART,

WITH A SORT OF CHILDLIKE FASCINATION.

I REALIZED VERY EARLY IN MY STUDIES IN SCIENCE

THAT I WASN'T INTERESTED IN LEARNING A LANGUAGE.

I WAS REALLY INTERESTED IN INVENTING LANGUAGES.

I FIGURED OUT THAT ART WOULD BE THE PERFECT PLACE FOR ME

BECAUSE WHAT'S ENCOURAGED IS THE INVENTION OF LANGUAGES.

EVEN WHEN I WAS A KID AND WAS MAKING DRAWING,

WHAT I FOUND FASCINATING IS THAT I WAS ABLE

TO MAKE WHATEVER I WANT EXIST IN THIS WORLD

AND HAVE PEOPLE REACT TO IT.

I'VE ALWAYS FELT DIFFERENT, I MEAN, FOR MANY REASONS.

MY FATHER COMES FROM EASTERN EUROPE,

I'M JEWISH, AND I'M GAY.

BUT WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG AND YOU REALIZE

THAT YOU HAVE AN EASE AT SOMETHING

OR A TALENT FOR SOMETHING,

IT GIVES YOU CONFIDENCE.

IT'S MINTY.

IT SMELLS LIKE MINT.

IT'S TRUE, BECAUSE THEY USE THAT'S WHAT THEY USE

AT THE DENTIST TO TAKE THE IMPRINT OF YOUR

IT'S NOT TOXIC, YOU KNOW?

[ exhales ]

WHEN I MAKE A SCULPTURE, I DEAL WITH THE MATERIAL FIRST.

THEN I TRY TO INJECT MY SENSIBILITY IN IT.

I TRY TO GIVE A CERTAIN FLAVOR TO THE SCULPTURE.

THAT'S HOW I MAKE COLOR CHOICES, FOR EXAMPLE.

I SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE CHOICE OF COLORS

AS CHANGING EVERYTHING INSIDE THE SCULPTURE.

I'M EXTREMELY ATTRACTED TO PASTEL COLORS,

BUT THEY HAVE TO BE DIRTY IN SOME WAY.

I LIKE THE COMBINATION OF LAVENDER AND PINK

AND MAYBE MINT GREEN,

BUT THEN THERE HAS TO BE

SOME KIND OF DIRTY BROWN GREEN IN IT...

JUST TO KIND OF INFECT THE PRETTINESS.

THEN I FEEL LIKE I'VE FOUND EXACTLY THE RIGHT BALANCE.

I DON'T WANT THE SCULPTURE THAT I MAKE

TO BE A MERE ILLUSTRATION.

I TRY TO BUILD AN OBJECT

THAT'S GONNA BECOME COMPLEX ENOUGH, HAVE ENOUGH LAYERS,

HAVE ENOUGH REFERENCES AND ENERGY

TO START FEELING LIKE IT'S ALIVE...

THAT IT'S DEVELOPING THE CAPACITY

OF GENERATING ITS OWN MEANING.

AND THEN I CAN LOOK AT IT FROM A DISTANCE

AND LEARN FROM IT,

BECAUSE I CAN ALMOST SEE IT SAY OR HEAR IT SAY

THINGS THAT I NEVER THOUGHT.

THESE ARE MEANT TO RESEMBLE BEES.

ACTUALLY, IN THAT PCE,

WHAT I'M GONNA TRY TO BE DOING IS

ACCUMULATE A LOT OF SMALL ELEMENTS

THAT ARE SORT OF REFERENTIAL, FIGURATIVE ELEMENTS

BEES, INSECTS, NEEDLES

AND ACCUMULATE THEM TO THE POINT

WHERE THAT SWARM THAT I'M GOING TO CREATE

IS GOING TO BECOME A SORT OF ABSTRACT SHAPE.

SO I WANT TO START

BY FIGURATIVE, RECOGNIZABLE, SMALL, DETAILED ELEMENTS

AND COMBINE THEM TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT BECOMES ABSTRACT.

VERY OFTEN, IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

THE MORE YOU ZOOM IN, THE MORE ABSTRACT IT BECOMES.

IN THAT CASE, I WANT TO START WITH A LARGE ABSTRACT SHAPE,

AND WHEN YOU ZOOM IN,

YOU ACTUALLY START RECOGNIZING THINGS MORE AND MORE.

[ train rumbling on tracks ]

[ train rumbling on tracks ]

WHEN I MAKE SCULPTURE, WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS

MAKE AN OBJECT THAT'S GOING TO FEEL LIKE IT'S ALIVE.

I'M NOT INTERESTED IN RE-PRESENTING LIFE.

I'M MORE INTERESTED IN MAKING OBJECTS

THAT SORT OF FUNCTION LIKE LIVING THINGS,

SO THEY'LL FEEL LIKE THEY'RE ALIVE.

WHEN I PUT MY HANDS ON IT OR WHEN I MAKE HOLES IN IT

AND DRAG PLASTER THROUGH THAT HOLE,

IT'S REALLY TO INJECT AN ENERGY IN IT.

SO I KIND OF LIKE THAT CONTRAST

BETWEEN THE FACT THAT A HOLE THROUGH THE CHEST

MIGHT BE INTERPRETED AS MEANING DEATH,

BUT IN MY MIND, IT'S ACTUALLY THE OPPOSITE.

IT SHOULD NOT EVEN, LIKE, BE FLUSH.

IT SHOULD BE LOWER,

BECAUSE, IF YOU CAN IMAGINE,

IF I PUT PLASTER ON IT AND IT'S FLUSH WITH THE SURFACE,

THEN ITHAT MEANS THERE WILL BE SUCH A THIN LAYER OF PLASTER

THAT, LIKE, JUST THAT IS GONNA MAKE IT CRACK.

- YEAH.

- TAKE IT DOWN, LIKE, AT LEAST 1/8 INCH.

- ALL RIGHT.

- RIGHT?

- YEAH.

- THANKS.

[ scraping sounds ]

THIS ONE IS PART OF A SERIES THAT I STARTED A YEAR AGO

CALLED THE WATCHERS.

THE WATCHERSARE SOME KIND OF ANGEL FIGURES.

THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY WINGED FIGURE,

LIKE THE CLICHE OF THE ANGEL,

BUT THE EARS HAVE SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT WINGLIKE.

I'M ALSO INTERESTED IN OPENINGS, ORIFICES.

A BODY THAT WOULD BE FILLED WITH ORIFICES

THAT USUALLY HAVE THE PURPOSE OF HEARING SOUND

WAS INTERESTING AS WELL.

THE IDEA OF SENSES.

SOMETIMES THEIR BODIES ARE COVERED IN HANDS;

THAT'S THE IDEA OF THE TOUCH.

AND IF THEY'RE COVERED IN EARS,

I LIKE THE IDEA THAT THEY'RE

BECOME LIKE A BODY THAT WOULD BE ULTRASENSITIVE WITH SOUND.

[ sighs ]

I THINK FASTER THAN I CAN SPEAK.

MY BRAIN IS NOT THE BEST WHEN IT COMES TO VERBAL LANGUAGE.

BUT IT SEEMS LIKE I'M VERY COMFORTABLE

USING MATTER AND PLACING THINGS.

IT FEELS LIKE MY BRAIN IS TOTALLY IN SYNC.

SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE THERE'S BRAINS IN MY HANDS.

[ clicking tongue ]

THE VESSEL,THERE'S SOMETHING ALMOST RELIGIOUS ABOUT IT,

AND IT'S REALLY MAKING A VERY STRONG REFERENCE TO THE BODY

IN ITS SYMMETRICAL SHAPE.

THE WAY IT'S RADIATING FEELS ALMOST CATHOLIC IN SOME WAY.

I CAN SEE IT GOING IN THAT DIRECTION,

THE IDEA OF A CENTER OF ENERGY

AND RADIATION OF THAT ENERGY AND THE BODY,

SOMETHING THAT WASN'T AS CLEAR BEFORE IN MY WORK.

BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT SYMMETRICAL,

I FEEL LIKE THE SWARM BECOMES MORE LIKE A LANDSCAPE

AND LESS LIKE A BODY.

THAT SHAPE FLOATING IN SPACE IS VERY SOFT.

THAT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE A CLOUD SOMEHOW.

BUT THEY'RE, AT THE SAME TIME, AGGRESSIVE.

EVERY ELEMENT IN THAT SWARM HAS THE POTENTIAL TO STING YOU.

I FOUND THAT COMBINATION

OF THE SOFTNESS OF THAT ABSTRACT CLOUD SHAPE

AND THAT AGGRESSIVE POTENTIAL TO BE REALLY NICE, THAT BALANCE.

THE VESSELAND THE SWARM ARE BIG ENOUGH

TO BE CONSIDERED LIKE LABORATORIES

INSIDE OF WHICH I TRY THINGS, I COMBINE MATERIALS IN NEW WAYS,

I MAKE MISTAKES, I COME UP WITH NEW IDEAS.

THE WORK HAS DEVELOPED ENOUGH COMPLEXITY AND LAYERS

AND INTELLIGENCE AND INDEPENDENCE

THAT IT'S ABLE TO GENERATE ITSELF AND TRANSFORM ITSELF.

- THE JAPANESE PAVILION HAS A HOLE IN THE CEILING

AND A HOLE IN THE FLOOR.

RAIN FALLS THROUGH THE ROOF.

THE CONCEPT IS THAT WITH THE RAIN FALLING THROUGH,

THE BUILDING BECOMES ONE WITH NATURE.

I DECIDED TO USE THE ENTIRE BUILDING AS PART OF MY WORK.

[ sustained tone ]

[ eerie melody ]

♪ ♪

THERE IS A CHINESE SAYING:

"A FROG IN A WELL DOES NOT KNOW THE BIG OCEAN."

IN JAPAN, WE LIKE TO SAY,

"A FROG IN THE WELL DOESN'T KNOW THE BIG OCEAN.

HOWEVER, HE KNOWS THE HEIGHT OF THE SKY."

[ deep orchestral tones ]

I PUT MYSELF IN THE SHOES OF THIS FROG.

THAT'S HOW I CONCEIVED AND DEVELOPED MY IMAGES.

♪ ♪

I LIKE TO MAKE MUSIC MORE THAN LISTEN TO IT.

I KNOW WHAT KINDS OF SOUNDS THE WORK NEEDS,

AND I CAN MAKE THEM MYSELF.

[ rumbling sounds ]

JAPANESE KITCHENWAS MY FIRST VIDEO INSTALLATION.

I CREATED IT FOR MY GRADUATION PROJECT.

IN ORDER TO GET MY FIRST JOB IN THE DESIGN FLD,

I PUT ALL MY TECHNIQUE AND KNOWLEDGE INTO THIS WORK.

[ knife chopping ]

[ faucet squeaks ]

[ water running ]

SALARY MAN, HOUSEWIFE, OR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT:

THEY'RE ALL STEREOTYPICAL CHARACTERS.

I DON'T NEED TO EXPLAIN THEM,

SO I CAN FOCUS ON CONTENT RATHER THAN CHARACTER.

[ voice chanting ]

[ sizzling ]

[ sizzling ]

[ motor humming ]

MY INSPIRATION IS THE SITUATION

OF THE HOUSEWIFE DOING COOKING AND LISTENING TO THE TV,

A KIND OF TALK SHOW TYPE OF NEWS REPORTING.

YOU MIGHT HEAR SOMETHING PAINFUL OR HORRIBLE,

ONE AFTER ANOTHER,

BUT TEN SECONDS AFTER YOU HEAR THAT HORRIBLE, PAINFUL STORY,

YOU'VE ALREADY FORGOTTEN IT.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS PREPARING THE DINNER.

[ voice chanting ]

[ knife chopping ]

[ chanting continues ]

SOME PEOPLE MAY FIND IT PAINFUL.

SOME MAY FIND IT FUNNY.

[ water runs ] [knob squeaking]

WHEN I'M MAKING MY WORK, I TAKE 50% OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.

THE OTHER HALF OF THE RESPONSIBILITY

IS ON THE VIEWER...

[ gunshot ]

THEN THE WORK IS COMPLETE.

DRAWING IS VERY IMPORTANT.

WITHOUT DRAWING, MY IDEAS CAN'T PERCOLATE.

I MAKE LINE DRAWINGS ON PAPER, AND THEN I SCAN THEM

AND FILL IN THE LINES ON THE COMPUTER.

I TAKE ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS I HAVE COLORED IN

AND COMBINE THEM ON A SCREEN TO CREATE A SINGLE IMAGE.

THEN I PUT THE IMAGES ON A TIMELINE, CEL BY CEL,

CREATING THE ANIMATION.

[ distorted electronic music ]

♪ ♪

GUIGNORAMA IS A VISUALIZATION OF THE SENSATION I GET

FROM THE ATOPIC DERMATITIS IN MY HANDS.

WHEN MY HANDS ITCH,

IT FEELS LIKE THERE'S AN INSECT OR SOMETHING

CRAWLING UNDER MY SKIN.

[ speaking Japanese ]

I WANTED THE DRAWINGS TO CONVEY

THE SENSATION OF SOMETHING LIVING INSIDE MY HANDS,

EVEN THOUGH THEY SEEM NORMAL ON THE SURFACE.

THE WORD "GUIGNORAMA" IS MY COMBINATION

OF THE FRENCH WORD GUIGNOL, MEANING "PUPPET,"

AND THE ENGLISH WORD "PANORAMA."

THIS COMBINATION CONVEYS A SENSE OF INSTALLATION.

I REALLY LIKE INVENTING WORDS.

[ water glugging ]

[ motor humming ]

[ mechanical clanking ]

[ distorted electronic music ]

♪ ♪

[ both laugh ]

[ speaking Japanese ]

- MY GENERATION SEEMS TO STAND ON UNSTABLE GROUND,

AND THIS IS REFLECTED IN MY WORK IN VARIOUS, DIFFERENT WAYS.

[ camera shutter clicking ]

[ speaking Japanese ]

[ deep rumbling tone ]

[ door creaks ]

- PUBLIC TOILETS ARE VERY PUBLIC PLACES,

BUT ONCE YOU ENTER A STALL,

IT BECOMES AN EXTREMELY PRIVATE PLACE.

[ water running ] [faucet squeaks]

[ deep rumbling tone ]

WHEN I WAS MAKING THE WORK,

I WAS VERY CONSCIOUS OF THE WORLD OF THE INTERNET.

[ door creaks ]

THERE ARE MANY KINDS OFF COMMUNITIES ON THE INTERNET,

DIVIDED ACCORDING TO THEIR INTERESTS,

AS THOUGH EACH IS IN ITS OWN PRIVATE ROOM OR STALL.

[ deep rumbling tone ]

FROM TIME TO TIME, THE CAMERA AND ITS CLOSE-UP COVERAGE

OF WHAT IS GOING ON

INTRUDES BY BRINGING THE VIEWER INTO THAT SPACE.

[ crackling noise ]

[ camera shutter clicks ]

[ clicking sound ]

[ shutter clicking ]

THE WORLD OF CONCEALED INFORMATION

WHICH, IN THIS VIDEO, HAS TO DO WITH THE PRIVACY

OF THE BATHROOM STALL AND ITS PARALLEL IN THE INTERNET

IS SOMETHING THAT I KEEP IN MIND ALL THE TIME.

[ water splashing ]

IN PUBLIC CONVENIENCE, THE WATER IS CONSTANTLY RUNNING.

WE DON'T KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING.

ITS DESTINATION IS HIDDEN FROM US,

BUT IF A LOT OF WATER IS COMING IN,

IT HAS TO BE GOING SOMEWHERE,

SO THERE MUST BE ANOTHER WORLD THAT LIES BEYOND.

[ water splashes ]

[ water gurgling ]

IN MY WORK, THE COMING AND GOING OF WATER

IS A WAY OF ENVISIONING A WORLD BEYOND THIS ONE.

[ water running ]

[ door creaks ]

[ footsteps ]

[ faucet squeaks ]

[ water running ]

[ water running ] [footsteps]

[ water running ]

[ faucet squeaks ]

[ water running ]

[ door creaks ]

AT THE TIME I MADE THIS WORK, A FRIEND OF MINE HAD A CHILD

BUT IMMEDIATELY PUT IT UP FOR ADOPTION.

I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT HER SITUATION,

AND I USED THAT IDEA IN THIS WORK.

[ door creaks ]

[ footsteps ]

[ toilet flushes ]

I WANT THE VIEWER TO ACTIVELY ENGAGE WITH THE WORK.

I WANT THEM TO WONDER,

"WHAT DOES THIS WORK MEAN TO ME?"

[ shoes clicking ]

[ doors creak and shut ]

[ camera clicks ]

- ALL OF THIS, THE WORK IN GENERAL,

IT'S ABOUT BEING FREE.

YOU SHOULD EXPRESS YOURSELF THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO BE.

GO AFTER THINGS IN YOUR LIFE THAT BRING YOU PLEASURE.

GAY POLITICS, HUMAN RIGHT POLITICS, WHATEVER,

IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT BEING FREE.

WE'RE MAKING A SERIES OF 58 DRAWINGS

FOR THIS ART FAIR IN SAO PAULO.

SO THIS WAS MY PROPOSAL EMAIL.

ME AND CHRISTOPHE ARE MAKING CYCLOPS TRANNIES PORTRAITS.

TRANNIES TRANSVESTITESPORTRAITS.

- WE HAD THE CONCEPT,

"OKAY, LET'S MAKE ALL THESE PORTRAIT OF CYCLOP TRANNIES."

WE HAD TO WORK SEPARATELY.

ONE OF THESE FEW PROJECT WHERE, ACTUALLY,

I DID 20-SOMETHING DRAWINGS,

AND HE DID, LIKE, 20 OTHER, LIKE, SOMETHING DRAWING.

AND THEN THEY WERE ALL, LIKE, FRAMED TOGETHER

AND DISPLAYED ON THE WALL.

I ALWAYS LIKE THIS THING OF LEAVING YOUR EGO BEHIND

AND MERGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING QUITE MAGICAL.

I LOVE THIS IDEA OF COLLABORATION.

IN 2005, WE WERE INVITED TO BE PART OF THIS BIG SHOW

FOR THE L.A. MOCA.

THIS IS THE FIRST EVER PROJECT THAT WE DID TOGETHER, FULL-ON.

WE CONCEIVE EVERYTHING TOGETHER,

SO THAT WAS ALWAYS DRIVEN BY THIS COLLABORATIVE DYNAMIC.

WE SPENT THREE MONTHS IN L.A.,

AND IT WAS ALSO DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION

AND THERE WAS ALL THESE THING GOING ON WITH SCIENTOLOGY.

AND SO WE DECIDED TO CONNECT ALL THIS DIFFERENT INFORMATION

FOR THAT INSTALLATION.

WE DECIDED TO TURN ALL OF THE MUSEUM INTO A DISCO

AND WANTED THE DISCO TO ACTUALLY FUNCTION AS A NIGHTCLUB

DURING THE COURSE OF THE SHOW.

- THIS DISCO WAS LIKE AN HOMAGE

TO THE BIRTH OF GAY RIGHTS IN AMERICA,

WHICH, A LOT OF IT HAPPENED IN THE DISCO SPACE,

LIKE THIS COMMUNION, YOU KNOW, OF PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX,

AND, LIKE, QUITE OFTEN, VERY HEDONISTIC,

BUT ALSO, THERE WAS A LOT OF POLITICS HAPPENING

AT THATIN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME

WE ACTUALLY WORKED WITH THIS TRANNY SYMBOL.

WE WANT TO TURN EVERYBODY INTO TRANNIES,

SO WE GAVE OUT THE TRANNY MASKS

WITH THESE PICTURES THAT ANOTHER FRIEND OF OURS TOOK

OF THESE TRANNIES FROM PARIS.

THESE MASKSTHEY HAVE THIS SPECIAL LENSES

THAT MULTIPLY THE AMOUNT OF LIGHT SPOTS.

AND PEOPLE WERE FASCINATED,

BECAUSE ONCE THEY PUT THE MASK ON,

THEY WOULD SEE ALL THESE DIFFERENT COLORS

AND DIFFERENT SHAPES.

[ indistinct conversations ]

REMEMBER I WAS DOING, LIKE, THE

THE THING WITH PUMPING THE INK FROM THE THING?

- YEAH, YEAH.

- THAT'S WHAT THIS WAS.

- OH.

- THAT'S WHERE THAT CAME.

CAN YOU TELL WHICH ONES ARE MINE

AND WHICH ONES ARE CHRISTOPHE'S?

- UM... - I THINK IT'S A BIT OBVIOUS.

BUT I'M NOT SURE PEOPLE

- THIS IS CHRISTOPHE.

- YEAH.

- THIS IS YOU.

- YEAH.

- CHRISTOPHE, CHRISTOPHE... - YEAH.

- CHRISTOPHE.

YOU?

- YEAH.

THE THING IS, I - YOU'RE MORE...

- YEAH, I'M MORE...

- INTRICATE.

- INTRICATE.

THIS ONE IS IN THE CATALOG.

ACTUALLY, THIS WAS THE VERY FIRST ONE I MADE.

- OH, YEAH?

- NOW I REMEMBER.

THIS WAS THE VERY FIRST ONE, THE ONE I MADE HERE.

AND THEN...

WHEN I WAS THREE YEARS OLD,

I WAS FASCINATED BY THIS MAGAZINE

WHICH WAS CALLED DISNEYLANDIA,

WHICH IS "DISNEYLAND" IN PORTUGUESE.

MY MOTHER WOULD READ IT FOR ME,

IT WOULD BE GONE IN FIVE MINUTES,

AND I WOULD GET REALLY FRUSTRATED.

AND THEN MY FATHER TAUGHT ME

TO CUT THE CHARACTERS OUT OF THE MAGAZINE,

PUT THEM ON CARDBOARD, AND I COULD MAKE MY OWN STORIES.

AND THAT EVOLVED ALONG THE YEARS

TO MARVEL SUPERHEROES, ESPECIALLY THE X-MEN.

SO I WOULD CUT THE LITTLE CHARACTERS OUT OF THE MAGAZINE

AND THE POWER RAYS OR THE ARCHITECTURE.

AND I HAD A BOARD, AND I WOULD LAY ON MY BED

AND START PLAYING WITH THEM AND CREATE MY OWN STORIES.

[ indistinct dialogue ]

I THINK IT'S A LOT RELATED TO THE WALLPAPER.

IT'S THE SAME SORT OF FLAT-SURFACE APPROACH

TO THE IMAGERY.

MY FATHER WAS REALLY MY CREATIVE CONNECTION.

WHEN I WAS BORN, HE WAS ALREADY 60 YEARS OLD.

HE WAS VERY SOCIAL,

BUT MY MEMORY OF HIM IS THIS GUY WHO'S ALWAYS AT HOME.

MY FATHER WAS A GENERAL FROM THE ARMY.

HE WAS NOT IN FAVOR OF THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.

HE WAS FORCED TO RESIGN.

HE WAS ALSO A LITERATURE CRITIC AND A POET

BESIDES BEING A DENTIST.

HE WOULD CONSTANTLY TELL ME,

"OH, MY GOD, YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING WITH COLOR.

YOU'RE SUCH A COLORIST."

MY MOTHER WAS, LIKE, QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

SUPER-CONSERVATIVE, BUT SHE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH EDUCATION.

MY FATHER HAD BEEN REWRITING HIS LAST BOOK FOREVER.

HE WOULD BE TYPING LITTLE PCES, DIFFERENT WORDS,

AND PASTING THOSE WORDS ON TOP OF THE OLD WORDS.

HIS LAST BOOK IS A WHOLE COLLAGE

OF DIFFERENT WORDS THAT HE'D KEEP REPLACING.

[ indistinct conversation ]

HE SPENT A WHOLE YEAR IN '68

THE YEAR I WAS BORN, WHICH WAS THE YEAR

THAT THE DICTATORSHIP GOT MORE OPPRESSIVEAT HOME.

A LOT OF WHAT I DO NOWADAYS IS DUE TO HIM.

AND TO MY MOTHER TOO, BOTH OF THEM.

IT WAS A VERY GOOD COMBINATION, IN FACT.

[ alarm beeping ]

[ motor whirring ]

THIS WAS THE VERY FIRST DRAWING I MADE FOR THE SHOW AT DEITCH.

THE CORE CONCEPT OF THAT SHOW WAS DEMOLITION.

WE WERE LOOKING AT A FEW DIFFERENT DEMOLITION SOURCES

RELATED TO DEMOLISHING THE CITY, BECAUSE AT THAT POINT,

A LOT OF THE LONG ISLAND CITY AND THE BROOKLYN NEIGHBORHOODS

WERE BEING DEMOLISHED

TO GIVE BIRTH TO THESE BIG HIGH-RISES.

ME AND CHRISTOPHE,

WE WERE INTERESTED IN THE DEMOLITION SITES,

AND WE WERE ACTUALLY MAKING A LOT OF INSTALLATIONS

WHICH REPLICATED THAT IMAGERY.

THESE ARE SKETCHES FROM THAT SHOW,

AND A LOT OF THESE THINGS

ARE ACTUALLY THINGS THAT WE'D NEVER END UP PRODUCING,

LIKE THIS.

THIS WAS THE DJ BOOTH

MADE OF ALL THE TRASHED WOOD WITH PLASTIC RIBBONS.

THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A SPACE THAT YOU GO IN.

THERE'S, LIKE, A STAIRCASE HERE, AND IT HAD A LITTLE DOOR.

AND IT HADTHIS IS A SAUSAGE,

AND THESE ARE FRENCH FRIES OVER HERE.

I DON'T REMEMBER, LIKE,

WHY WE CAME UP WITH THIS FRENCH FRIES AND SAUSAGE THING.

IT WASI WAS SORT OF OBSESSED ABOUT THAT AT ONE POINT.

EVERYTHING HAD A LOOK OF CONSTRUCTION,

SO THERE'S, LIKE, A TARP LIKE, A BLUE TARP

ON TOP OF THE TRASH WOOD STRUCTURE HERE.

SO WE CREATE SORT OF, LIKE, A SHANTY HOUSE STRUCTURE.

WE CREATED THIS NEON BOX.

IT WAS LIKE A HOLE,

AND YOU WOULD PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH

AND THEN YOU WOULD SEE YOUR FACE REFLECTED.

YOU HAD ALL THESE NEONS AROUND YOUR FACE.

IT WAS LIKE A ONE-WAY MIRROR.

FROM OUTSIDE, IT WAS ACTUALLY TRANSPARENT,

SO YOU WOULD SEE THIS PERSON'S FACE

WITH ALL THESE NEONS AROUND, FLICKERING AND STUFF.

THIS IS A ZINE THAT WE MADE FOR THAT SHOW.

AND THIS WAS, LIKE

WE HAD, LIKE, 16 DIFFERENT PEOPLE WORKING WITH US.

A LOT OF OUR FRIENDS FROM BRAZIL WERE WORKING IN THE SHOW,

AND WE WERE GIVING OUT THIS ZINE,

SO EVERYBODY HAD ONE OR TWO PAGES FOR THIS COLLABORATION.

THERE WAS ONE FACADE

THAT STRUCK BOTH ME AND CHRISTOPHE:

THESE PINK STONES AND, LIKE, GRAY PLASTIC SHINGLES.

WE SPENT TWO MONTHS COLLECTING ALL THE TRASH WOOD

FROM ALL THESE HOUSES THAT WERE BEING DEMOLISHED IN THAT AREA

TO USE IN THAT INSTALLATION.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE CONNECTED WITH KENNY SCHARF.

AND THEN WE REMEMBERED NUKE BOMBS

PAINTINGS HE USED TO MAKE IN THE '80s

AND THEN I SAID,

"WHAT IF WE TURN ONE OF HIS NUKE BOMBS INTO A NEON?"

THIS PLACE WAS RIGHT ON THE WATER,

AND IT HAD THIS MOST IDYLLIC VIEW OF MANHATTAN

RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.

I SAID, "LET'S NUKE MANHATTAN.

"LET'S PUT THE BOMB RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE SKYLINE.

"THE HISTORY OF THE CITY IS BEING DEMOLISHED.

"LET'S POINT THAT OUT, AND THEN LET'S POINT OUT

THAT PEOPLE SHOULD ALSO MAKE THEIR OWN HISTORY IN THE CITY."

RELATED TO THAT, WE BROUGHT ANOTHER SUBJECT

WHICH WE WERE WORKING ON FOR A WHILE,

WHICH IS THE TRANNY, THE TRANSGENDER IMAGE,

AND WE USED THAT AS ANOTHER SYMBOL OF DEMOLITION:

DEMOLITION OF IDENTITY, A DEMOLITION OF YOUR OWN BODY.

WE HAD THIS GIANT DOLL WITH A WOMAN BODY,

BUT ONE SIDE WAS A MAN FACE; OTHER SIDE WAS A WOMAN FACE.

WE WANTED TO REUSE THAT DOLL

AND TO SOMEHOW DEMOLISH HER AS WELL,

BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING FROM THE PAST

THAT WE WANTED TO CONNECT THIS DEMOLITION IDEA

WE WANTED TO DEMOLISH OUR OWN WORK.

SO WE BROKE HER APART,

AS IF THE BROOKLYN FACADE HAD JUST POPPED RIGHT ONTO HER.

I CAN NEVER REMEMBER WHICH WITCH IS THE ONE

THAT IS DEAD IN THE BEGINNING OF WIZARD OF OZ,

WHICH YOU JUST SEE THE SHOES.

THE WEST, THE EAST I DON'T KNOW.

A LOT OF WHAT WE MAKE STARTS BY WRITING

OR IDEAS OR WORDS OR LISTS OF THINGS I NEED TO DO,

AND IT'S LIKE CREATING A UNIVERSE, SOMEHOW.

WORKING TOGETHER, IT'S VERY

IT'S LONELY, BECAUSE I'M WHAT HAPPENS THAT, YOU KNOW,

I'M AT MY STUDIO IN NEW YORK,

AND CHRISTOPHE IS IN HIS STUDIO IN PARIS.

AND THEN WE EXCHANGE EMAILS.

I HAVE AN IDEA FOR A SHOW, AND I WRITE

I DESCRIBE THIS IDEA IN THE EMAIL.

AND THEN HE WRITES BACK TO ME,

AND THEN HE GIVES ME HIS THOUGHTS ABOUT IT

AND I GIVE MY THOUGHTS ABOUT HIS THOUGHTS.

SO WE'RE ALWAYS, LIKE, KIND OF EXCHANGING EMAILS

ABOUT EACH OTHER'S VISION OR IDEAS FOR A CERTAIN SHOW.

[ percussive rhythm ]

- WE WERE, IN SOME WAYS, MEANT TO WORK TOGETHER.

I THINK WE HAVE, LIKE, THE SAME SORT OF VIEW ON LIFE, ON ART.

ELI IS ONE PERSON; I'M SOMEBODY ELSE.

[ laughs ]

AND WE HAVE OUR OWN DIFFERENCES,

AND I GUESS THAT'S THE GREAT THING ABOUT COLLABORATION, ALSO,

IS TO HAVE THOSE TWO DIFFERENCES CONNECT.

[ indistinct conversations ]

- I THINK THERE'S A STRATEGY IN WHAT WE MAKE,

WHICH IS FOR EVERYTHING TO BECOME ONE.

THE VIEWER BECOME ONE WITH THE INSTALLATION.

THE CORE OF WHAT WE MAKE,

IT'S NOT OBJECT; IT'S ENERGY.

YOU KNOW, WE CREATE THIS ENERGY,

AND THEN THIS ENERGY, IT'S THERE.

IT HAPPENS IN ONE MOMENT, AND THEN IT'S GONE.

YOU CAN'T SAVE THAT ENERGY.

YOU CAN'T SELL THAT ENERGY.

YOU CAN SHARE THAT ENERGY IN THAT MOMENT.

BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

[ indistinct conversations ]

♪ ♪

- START RECORDING.

- NOW.

- START RECORDING.

- NOW.

- NO, I SAID START RECORDING NOW.

- I SAID START RECORDING.

- [ indistinct ]

[ echoing ] - NOW.

- I WAS ASKED IN THE EARLY '70s

TO DO INSTALLATIONS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

AND FOR THE PRICE OF THE MATERIALS AND MY TICKET,

I WENT TO THESE DIFFERENT PLACES AND DID AN ART WORK.

[ rapid jazz music ]

♪ ♪

THEY WERE LIKE STATEMENTS OF THE REALITY THAT YOU FEEL

IN THE CONVERSATIONS THAT ARTISTS HAVE

WITH EACH OTHER AND WITH THE WORLD

AND WITH THEIR TIMES.

ONE THING THAT THESE WORKS CLEARLY DO IS STATE

THAT THE PROCESS, THE DRAWING TEXTURE EQUAL FORM.

AND IT'S ABOUT DRAWING.

AND THESE IDEAS HAVE COME FROM, REALLY, PAINTING IDEAS,

YET THEY'RE DIMENSIONAL.

THIS IS ONE THING I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN EXPLORING.

EAT MEATIS A SAND-CAST BRONZE.

IT HAS A LOVELY PATINA

FROM BEING OUT IN THE ELEMENTS OVER 30, 40 YEARS.

[ indistinct conversations ]

I THINK OF MYSELF AS A PAINTER

PROBABLY BECAUSE I DON'T USE GLUE.

I FOUND MY SPACE, SO TO SPEAK,

BECAUSE I WAS PARTICULARLY INTERESTED

IN PAINTERLY MATERIALS AND ALSO FORM AND SPACE

AND WHERE THE GESTURE COULD TAKE THE MATERIAL.

ALL OF THEM ARE DRAWN WITH EITHER A BUCKET OR A CAN.

THE USE OF THE BODY, THE USE OF THE HAND,

THE USE OF THE MOVEMENT OF THE BODY,

DANCING AND RHYTHM

I WAS JUST VERY INTERESTED IN THAT KIND OF BODILY GESTURE.

TAKE IT DOWN, BILL.

QUICK!

THEY'RE ALL POLYURETHANE,

THE SAME POLYURETHANE USED IN INSULATION.

I MADE A COUPLE OF PCES OF PHOSPHORESCENCE.

I HAD TO LIGHT THEM, AND THEY ABSORBED THE LIGHT.

AND THEN THE LIGHTS WERE TURNED OFF ON A TIMER.

AND WHAT HAPPENED,

BECAUSE OF THE FLOWS AND THE POURS AND THE GRAVITY,

WHAT YOU WOULD SEE IS THEM COMING DOWN

AND RISING AGAIN AT THE SAME TIME.

I'M VERY INTERESTED IN HOW THINGS CHANGE

THROUGH OUR READING OF THE GRAVITY IN THE FORM.

IF A WATERFALL FREEZES, HOW DO YOU REALLY READ IT?

YOU CAN READ IT GOING UP OR DOWN,

AND HOW DO YOU READ IT?

[ static buzzing ]

THIS IS MY SISTER JANE.

SHE'S GETTING ON THE MOTORBIKED

STILL MOTORBIKE WEIGHT-REDUCING BIKE.

THE CAMERA HAD TO BE TURNED SIDEWAYS

SO I COULD GET JANE IN.

SHE WAS RIDING THE BIKE.

SHE'S TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO TURN IT ON.

MY FATHER'S WARNING HER TO HOLD ONTO THE HANDLEBARS.

AND IT STARTED UP.

NOW SHE WANTS TO TURN IT OFF,

AND SHE'S WONDERING HOW TO TURN IT OFF.

IT'S BEING UNPLUGGED.

THIS IS MY GRANDMOTHER'S HOUSE.

WE'RE ROUNDING THE CORNER.

SHE LIVES ABOUT TEN-MINUTE RIDE IN SMALL TOWN

CALLED SULPHUR, LOUISIANA.

HERE SHE IS.

SHE LOOKS QUITE PALE TO ME,

AND I WAS VERY SURPRISED THAT SHE WAS SO PALE.

SHE'S ASKING ME, WHAT AM I DOING?

[ creaking ]

I REALLY HAD A VERY RICH CHILDHOOD, I THINK,

AND ALSO TRAVELED TO GREECE

VERY EARLY ON WITH MY GRANDMOTHER.

TRAVELED THE ISLANDS AND INTO THE MOUNTAINS.

- AHH!

- WELL, MY BROS LIVE OUT THERE, MAN.

- IT'S PRE-CLASSIC GREECE.

THEY SAY, EVEN, ON THIS ISLAND

THAT THERE WERE THE BEGINNINGS OF MAN, OF WOMAN,

JUST REALLY EARLY, EARLY CIVILIZATION.

- OH, WELL WHAT DO YOU DO ON A WEEKEND?

- NAH, MAN, WE GO LOOKING FOR A FEW FIGHTS, YOU KNOW.

- I WAS BORN IN LAKE CHARLES, LOUISIANA.

I REALLY LIKE THE CARNIVAL

ON LAKE PONTCHARTRAIN AND THE FUN HOUSE.

- THAT GIRL IS SO BIG AND SO FAT,

IT TAKES FOUR MEN TO HUG HER AND A BOXCAR TO LUG HER.

- IMAGES JUMPING OUT,

THE PHOSPHORESCENT QUALITY OF THE IMAGES.

THEY SEEMED VERY REAL TO ME AT THE TIME.

- THIS IMAGE HERE.

- THIS IMAGE HERE.

- GOOD.

- WHICH IMAGE?

- OKAY, LET'S START RECORDING NOW.

- THIS IMAGE HERE.

- START RECORDING NOW.

- WE ARE RECORDING.

- WE ARE RECORDING.

- START RECORDING, I SAID.

- NO, I SAID START RECORDING NOW.

- THIS IS A TAPE I MADE.

- THIS IS A TAPE HE MADE OF A TAPE SHE MADE

OF A TAPE HE MADE... - OF MORRIS...

- IN HER STUDIO.

- IN MY STUDIO.

- THIS IS A TAPE HE MADE... - SOMETIMES...

- LOUISIANA HAD A WHOLE AREA OF WATERWAYS

THAT LED TO A BIG LAKE THAT THEN LED TO THE GULF,

SO THERE WERE ALL KINDS OF CHANNELS,

AND I KNEW THEM, RIDING AROUND IN A LITTLE MOTORCAR.

BEING RIGHT THERE ON THE WATER...

I HAD HORSES...

- THIS TAPE ONSCREEN IS RAW MATERIAL.

REPHOTOGRAPHING HIS TAPE MADE IT HER WORK.

OR COMMENTING ON IT MADE IT HER WORK.

OR BOTH.

SHE IS HEARD BUT NEVER SEEN.

- [ indistinct female voice ]

- NOTHING HERE HAS BEEN REPHOTOGRAPHED.

[ horn honks ]

- IT STARTED BY AN INVITATION FROM ANAND:

"ANAND SARABHAI WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO COME TO INDIA,

"AND RAUSCHENBERG AND ROBERT MORRIS

ARE INTRODUCING ME TO YOU."

I VISITED INDIA THE LAST 35 YEARS.

AFTER ABOUT TEN YEARS, ANAND SAID TO ME,

"LYNDA, I HAVE A WELL HERE, AND I WANT TO COVER IT."

I SAID, "WELL, I'D LIKE TO MAKE A FOUNTAIN."

HE SAID, "NO, I DON'T WANT A FOUNTAIN."

HE SAID,

"I WANT A SCULPTURE TO COVER THE WELL."

I MADE A 15-FOOT TRAPEZOID WALL.

I BEGAN DRAWING ON THIS WALL.

I THOUGHT I COULD DRAW AN ELEPHANT

WHEN I WAS TWO OR THREE YEARS OLD.

SO I BEGAN DRAWING AN ELEPHANT,

NEVER HAVING CARVED A PCE OF THIS SCALE.

I GREW UP IN A BRICK HOME, RECYCLED BRICK,

SO WHEN I VISITED HERE,

THIS KIND OF REMINDED ME OF LOUISIANA.

WE HAVE A SEMITROPICAL PLACE THERE.

SO BRICK IS VERY FAMILIAR TO ME.

THIS PARTICULAR BRICK IS SOFT, SO IT WAS EASILY CARVABLE.

IT ENDED UP, AT ONE END, BEING VERY VASE-LIKE.

AND AT THE OTHER END, BEING KIND OF ELEPHANTINE.

WHEN I FINISHED,

RATHER THAN A FOUNTAIN, I HAD A PLANTER FOR A PALM TREE,

SO I PLANTED A PALM TREE.

THERE WAS ANOTHER IMAGE THAT I ALSO CREATED AFTER THAT:

A TWO-HEADED SNAKE.

I THOUGHT OF IT AS KIND OF INSIDE OUT.

PEOPLE BEGAN TO COME THERE AND WORSHIP.

SNAKES CAN TAKE ON OTHER FORMS.

A SNAKE COULD BE A KNOT,

AND THE KNOT COULD BE THE BEGINNING OF A LIFE.

IT WAS A WAY OF ARRIVING AT SOMETHING ELSE

OTHER THAN A WALL AROUND A TREE OR OUT INTO SPACE.

A KNOT IS SOMETIME AN IMPLOSION,

BUT A KNOT COULD ALSO BE AN EXPLOSION OF ENERGY.

I'VE DONE BOTH WITH THE IDEA OF THAT FORM.

IT'S EMBRYONIC.

IT GROWS.

IT COMES ABOUT.

IT EXTENDS ITS ARMS, LEGS.

THE FLORAL ASPECT HAS OCCURRED.

I WAS SHOWING THESE WRAPPED PCES OF GAUZE

I WAS BEGINNING TO THINK OF THE GAUZE AS BEING THE SKIN

AND THE CANVAS WRAPPED IN THE STRUCTURE OF THE WIRE.

AND SOMEONE SAID THEY WERE LIKE KOTEXES,

AND I WAS INSULTED, BUT I REALIZED THEY WERE RIGHT.

THEY WERE LONG AND TALL,

AND FOR ME, THEY WERE KIND OF GHOST IMAGES

AND TOOK THE PLACE OF THE CANVAS AND THE PAINT.

AND THEN I STARTED TYING THEM IN SIMPLE KNOTS.

I WAS THINKING OF AN ORGANIC CUBISM,

AND I WANTED TO CREATE A SPACE.

AND THEN STELLA SAW THE SPARKLED KNOTS

HE WAS ON THE PANEL

AND I GOT A GUGGENHEIM FOR THESE.

WHEN I WAS AT THE ACROPOLIS AS A VERY LITTLE GIRL,

I REMEMBER BEING TOTALLY CAUGHT UP WITH THE CARYATIDS

BECAUSE THEY WERE FEMALE.

THEY HAD A ICE-LIKE QUALITY.

WHEN I DISCOVERED THE POLYURETHANE PLASTIC

THAT LOOKED AS GLASS,

I WAS VERY PLEASED THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS GLASS.

AND IT HAD AN ILLUSION OF ICE, OF FROZEN WATER,

AND I WANTED THESE GRACES TO BE A FOUNTAIN.

- WE ARE HERE TO TAKE THIS LOVELY LITTLE GIRL.

WATCH WHAT SHE DOES.

INTO THE BOX, SWEETHEART.

YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR HEAD BELONGS?

THIS WAY.

LOOK AT THAT.

HER HEAD IS HERE, HER FEET ARE HERE.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,

NOTICING THAT THERE IS NOT VERY MUCH ROOM

FOR THE LITTLE GIRL TO BE IN THERE,

WATCH WHAT WE'RE DOING.

CLOSE THE LITTLE BOX LIKE SO.

WE TAKE A SOLID BLADE.

WE CUT RIGHT DOWN

BETWEEN THE GAZIPPY AND THE GAZOP

OR WE COULD DO THE OTHER END.

DOESN'T MATTER.

AND NOW THE OTHER END, THE GAZIPPY AND THE GAZOPPY.

THEN WE TAKE ANOTHER BLADE,

AND WE GO BETWEEN THE FLIPPY AND THE FLOPPY.

[ chuckles ] YOU GOT TO KNOW WHERE THE FLIPPY IS AND THE FLOPPY.

RIGHT DOWN THERE, WE CUT OFF HER GAZOOPAKYPER.

[ mysterious electronic music ]

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

announcer: NEXT TIME ON ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY:

all: MERDE!

SANS CHAPEAU.

- PERFORMANCE IS A TOOL, HOW I CAN EXPRESS MYSELF.

- SO OFTEN, PEOPLE SAY, "I GET YOUR MESSAGE,"

BUT I DON'T THINK

THAT MESSAGE IS SO SEPARATED FROM WHAT THE OBJECT IS.

announcer: TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY

AND ITS EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES,

PLEASE VISIT US ONLINE AT:

ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY IS AVAILABLE ON DVD.

THE COMPANION BOOK IS ALSO AVAILABLE.

TO ORDER, VISIT US ONLINE AT:

OR CALL PBS HOME VIDEO AT: