Protest

MY ART CAN BE SAID TO BE A PROTEST.

AND AS AN ARTIST, I'M PRIVILEGED TO CREATE THINGS

THE WAY I THINK THAT THEY MIGHT BE OR SHOULD BE.

I THINK WAR IS VERY COMPLICATED.

IT'S NOT BLACK AND WHITE.

MY IMAGINATION STARTS WORKING BASED ON A REAL LIFE EVENT --

MOST OF THE TIME, A TRAGEDY.

I DO TEND TO MAKE WORK THAT FOCUSES ON CRUELTY

IN HOPES THAT PEOPLE WILL RECOIL.

Spero: EVEN THOUGH I HAVE

OVER 500 IMAGES IN MY ART AT THIS POINT TO CHOOSE FROM,

NEVERTHESS I HAVE WHAT YOU CALL "STARS."

LIKE STARS IN HOLLYWOOD,

THEY'RE APPEARING AND REAPPEARING

IN DIFFERENT ROLES.

CERTAINLY THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS, THE MUSICIANS, ARE STARS.

AND I HAD MADE A DESIGN

WITH MANY OF THESE ANCIENT EGYPTIAN IMAGES

FOR THIS SUBWAY STATION HERE IN NEW YORK CITY.

IT'S A CONTINUUM, SEE A PROCESSION.

NOW THIS PROCESSION IS

KIND OF FORMALIZED AND DANCE-LIKE.

LET'S SAY IT COULD BE FOR AN OPERA.

AFTER ALL, THIS IS LINCOLN CENTER.

I LIKE TO THINK THAT I HAVE ALL LAYERS OF CONCEPTUAL

IN THE ART, THAT IT -- IT'S EASILY READ.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I DO HOPE THAT IT'S MORE COMPLICATED,

AND THAT IT'S NOT JUST ONE EASY READ AND THEN THAT'S IT.

SEE I HAVE TOO MUCH STUFF.

THIS IS FROM ABOUT --

THIS IS A LOT OF YEARS AND MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE PRINTING.

I GUESS MAYBE MY ART CAN BE SAID TO BE A PROTEST.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S RAILING AGAINST THE WORLD OR SOMETHING,

BUT I AM PROTESTING.

AND AS AN ARTIST,

I AM PRIVILEGED TO CREATE THINGS

THE WAY I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD BE,

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THAT GETS OUT MY --

MY MESSAGE TO THE WORLD.

SEE, I'M INTERESTED IN MESSAGES.

AND IF PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE SOMETHING FROM IT,

I AM THRILLED, OF COURSE.

THE WAR PAINTINGS ARE CERTAINLY A PROTEST

BECAUSE IT WAS DONE WITH INDIGNATION.

THE U.S. HAD GOTTEN INVOLVED IN VIETNAM,

AND I REMEMBER DURING THAT TIME

READING NEWSPAPERS AND I REMEMBER

THIS TERRIBLE IMAGE OF LIKE THIS WOMAN RUNNING FROM,

YOU KNOW, FROM HER HOUSE THAT

HAD BEEN SET AFIRE BY HELICOPTERS.

I THOUGHT OF THE VICTIMS IN VIETNAM

AND WHAT THEY WOULD THINK

OF THESE WAR MACHINES.

AND THAT WAS WORKING ON ME,

AND THEN I STARTED PAINTING THE WAR SERIES.

BUT I FELT THEN THAT THE SYMBOL OF THE VIETNAM WAR

WAS THE HELICOPTER,

AND THAT BECAME MY PRIMARY SUBJECT MATTER.

I THINK THE POLITICAL CAME

BY HAVING A PARTNERSHIP WITH LEON GOLUB.

MY HUSBAND, MY PARTNER REALLY OF OVER 51 YEARS,

HE'S RECENTLY DECEASED.

LEON ALWAYS HAD SOME SORT OF FOOT IN THE POLITICAL

IN HIS ART, WHETHER IT WAS OVERT OR NOT.

AND I THINK THAT THAT ASPECT OF HIS THINKING

INFLUENCED ME A LOT.

THIS BACK AND FORTH OF IDEAS

AND DISCUSSIONS,

I THINK THAT LEON'S PAINTING IS INCREDIBLY UGLY,

WHICH MAKES IT INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL.

BUT THE MAIN THING IS THE POWER AND THE ACTION IN IT.

IT WAS PRETTY DAMN DIFFICULT

CONTENDING WITH SOMEONE WHO WAS SO --

NOT ONLY DID HE DO BIG PAINTINGS AND FANTASTIC ONES,

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, HE --

HE WAS REALLY BRILLIANT, AND THAT'S PRETTY HARD.

I HAD A REALLY HARD TIME CONTENDING WITH SUCH A PERSON.

BUT I DECIDED I -- I JUST HAD TO DO MY THING,

AND SO I STARTED

DOING VERY SMALL WORK -- VERY SMALL WORK --

FIGURES THAT ARE SOMETIMES AN INCH TALL OR EVEN LESS,

ALMOST MICROSCOPIC.

AND SO IN A WAY THAT'S A RETORT.

AND ALSO IT'S A RETORT

TO THE LARGE WORKS OF --

OF THE MOSTLY MALE NEW YORK ARTISTS.

LEON, OF COURSE, ALWAYS IN MY MIND WAS AN EXCEPTION.

HOW TOTALLY SYMPATHETIC HE WAS TO MY ART.

OVER THE YEARS THE WORK HAS EVOLVED

FROM A MORE TRADITIONAL FORMAT

OF EITHER THE RECTANGLE OR THE SQUARE OR WHATEVER

IN FRONT OF ONE'S EYES.

AND IF WE MOVE OUR EYES,

THERE WOULD BE EVENTUALLY NOTHING THERE BUT BLANK WALL.

AND SO, I HAVE LET IT CONTINUE.

THIS IS IN MALMO, SWEDEN, THAT I SHOWED IT,

THE BLACK AND THE RED.

THIS WAS AN ENORMOUS ROOM.

IN SEEING THIS HUGE, HUGE GALLERY,

I JUST KIND OF TOOK A DEEP BREATH AND I PUT --

I PUT THE PAPER PIECE

AROUND IN A SINGLE BAND.

I CONTINUED ALONG PRINTING ON THE WALL LIKE A TROMPE L'OEIL

TO REITERATE THE IMAGES IN THE PRINTED PIECE.

AND WHEN THE SHOW WAS OVER,

I COULD PICK UP AND TAKE THE BLACK AND THE RED,

THAT WHICH WAS ON PAPER,

BUT I COULDN'T TAKE THE BLACK AND THE RED

THAT HAD BEEN PRINTED ON THE WALL.

IT'S LIKE THEATER.

WHEN THE PLAY IS OVER, IT'S FINISHED.

IT ONLY STAYS IN THE MEMORY OF THOSE WHO SAW IT,

AND REMEMBER IT.

SO WE'LL HAVE A FEW ON THE GROUND, YEAH.

WOW.

I DON'T KNOW IF WE'LL HAVE THEM ON THE GROUND OR NOT.

NO, NO, I PROBABLY --

MAYBE JUST A COUPLE ON THE GROUND, YOU KNOW.

YEAH.

OOH, THAT'S GOOD.

OOH, OOH, THAT'S REALLY WHITE.

OOPS, OOPS, OOPS.

YEAH, YEAH.

I WAS INVITED TO BE IN THE VENICE BIENNALE.

I THOUGHT, WHAT IN THE DEVIL AM I GOING TO DO?

AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT

ONE OF THE PAINTINGS I HAD DONE IN THE WAR SERIES.

AND IN THAT I HAD DONE A MAYPOLE WITH BLOODY SEVERED HEADS

HANGING FROM GAILY COLORED RIBBONS FROM THE MAYPOLE.

AND FINALLY I THOUGHT TO LITERALLY MAKE A MAYPOLE.

SO I JUST STARTED WORKING ON THE MAYPOLE

WITH THE HELP OF SAM KUNTZ AND MARYBETH CRAIG.

MARYBETH'S IMPRINTING THE IMAGES

AND SO SAM HAS BEEN WORKING HER PART OF THE MAGIC

IN TRANSFORMING THESE HEADS.

NANCY HAS SUCH A FACILITY TO RENDER

AN EXPRESSIVE,

PAINED FIGURE.

AND WHAT'S AMAZING TO ME

IS THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THESE CAREFULLY,

THEY'RE VERY SMALL AND THE LINE HAS BEEN DRAWN VERY QUICKLY.

AND THIS EXPRESSION IS ARTICULATED PERFECTLY.

AND THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT.

IT'S NOT --

I MEAN, IT'S A KIND OF FREEDOM THAT SHE HAS.

SOME OF THESE MIGHT EVEN HAVE BEEN DONE

AS PART OF THE WAR SERIES,

WHICH WOULD BE 1966 THROUGH 1968.

SHE SAVED SOME OF THESE HEADS THAT WERE NEVER INCORPORATED

INTO ANY OF THE PIECES.

AND SO NOW WE'RE BLOWING THEM UP TO MAKE

PRINTING PLATES OF POLYMER,

SO THAT WE CAN PRINT BACK ON ALUMINUM ON A LARGE SCALE

AND MAKE THESE DISEMBODIED HEADS.

BUT I FEEL THAT THE IMAGES I DID LONG AGO WHICH I CAN'T RECOUP,

YOU KNOW, I MEAN I CANNOT RE-DRAW THEM IN THE SAME WAY.

I'M ON ANOTHER --

I'M ON ANOTHER DIRECTION ALTOGETHER.

BUT I THOUGHT THAT I COULD CANNIBALIZE

WHAT I HAVE DONE 40 YEARS AGO.

I HAVE THE IDEA OF PRINTING ON THE METAL

AND THEN CUTTING IT OUT.

SO I'VE ENVISIONED IT, THEN,

THAT IT WOULD BE ON THIS METAL AND THAT MAYBE,

I DON'T KNOW HOW WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS,

BUT HAVE A FEW KIND OF TOGETHER.

AND SO IF THEY BANGED UP AGAINST EACH OTHER IT WOULD CLANK.

IF ONE GOES INTO JAIL, FOR INSTANCE,

AND HEARING THE CLANK OF THE DOOR, AND THERE YOU ARE,

YOU'RE -- I MEAN IT EVEN LEAVES ME BREATHLESS NOW,

THINKING ABOUT THAT, THE SOUND OF IT.

AND THERE YOU ARE.

I MEAN, THERE ONE IS IN THIS JAIL, YOU KNOW,

AND ONE CAN'T GET OUT

UNTIL THAT GUY WITH THE KEYS OR WHATEVER LETS --

LETS YOU OUT.

AND SO IT HAS ALL OF THESE THINGS

RUNNING THROUGH MY MIND AND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE METAL

AND SEVERED HEADS.

AND SO IT KIND OF GOT A FEELING OF THE RESEMBLANCES

OF ALL THIS BRUTALITY.

JUST TRYING TO SHOW THE INSANITY,

REALLY THE INSANITY OF WAR.

I ACTUALLY HAVE CANNIBALIZED MY OWN WORK

TO KIND OF LIBERATE MYSELF FROM WHAT I HAVE DONE

AND WHAT I REALLY WANT TO DO IN THE FUTURE.

FOR SPAIN, I HAD THIS IDEA OF THE REPETITION

OF THAT IMAGE THAT I SO BLATANTLY "LIBERATED," I SAY,

FROM THE ANCIENT EGYPTIAN "MOURNING WOMEN."

THEN I THOUGHT THAT SOMEHOW TO EMPHASIZE THIS --

THIS KIND OF PRAYERFUL LOOKING UP AS IF LOOKING UP

TO HEAVEN OR GOD KNOWS WHAT,

I DECIDED THAT IT SHOULD BE ON THE GROUND,

LIKE A REAL FUNERAL PROCESSION.

IN THE GALLERY IN NEW YORK I RETITLED

AND KIND OF REDID IT AGAIN,

BUT ENTITLED IT "CRI DU COEUR."

IT WAS THE FIRST PIECE AFTER LEON DIED.

LIKE A "CRY OF THE HEART," BUT TO ME IT MUST MEAN SOMETHING

KIND OF LIKE INTENSE EMOTION, ALMOST LIKE PRAYING,

A CRI DU COEUR, YOU KNOW,

PLEADING, YOU KNOW, WITH HEAVEN OR --

OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I THINK, BY THE GESTURES.

IT'S ALMOST -- IT'S ALWAYS SO STRANGE,

IT'S SO EMPTY AND THEN YOU JUST PUT ONE --

THESE STUPID LITTLE THINGS IN AND --

AND IT'S TOO MUCH THEN.

THIS IS GOOD.

MM-HMM.

MAYBE OVER NEAR --

WHY DO I DO ART?

WHAT ISN'T A REASON FOR DOING ART?

I DON'T KNOW, IT DOES NEED SOMETHING.

THAT'S WHY IT'S NOT FINISHED,

BECAUSE I CAN'T THINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT --

WHAT TO DO.

Sam: MAYBE IT NEEDS SOMETHING TO THROW IT OFF BALANCE.

SOMETHING AWKWARD.

MM-HMM, MM-HMM, MM-HMM.

I THINK I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT ANOTHER TIME.

Le: I THINK I HAD VERY CONFLICTED IDEAS

ABOUT THE MILITARY.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT DREW ME BUT AT THE SAME TIME

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS REPELLENT

BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAD HAPPENED IN VIETNAM.

I'M COMPLETELY FASCINATED

BY THE MILITARY STRUCTURE.

SO THE IDEA OF STUDYING

THE PREPARATION OF WAR BECAME VERY INTERESTING.

[ PLANE FLIES OVERHEAD ]

WHICH WOULD BE MUCH BETTER.

THAT'S WHAT -- WHEN THEY TOLD ME THE TOP, THAT'S WHAT I ASSUMED.

YEAH.

NO, THAT'S MUCH BETTER.

Woman: FOLLOW THE STAIRS UP.

[ MAN ON RADIO ]

Le: I THINK ON MY OWN,

I DON'T THINK I WOULD EVER GAIN ACCESS TO THE MILITARY,

AND LEARN ABOUT ALL THESE THINGS.

AND SO THE CAMERA IS A PRETEXT.

WOW.

HUH?

YEAH.

OH, THAT THING?

STAFF SERGEANT?

YES, MA'AM.

COULD YOU ASK THEM WHETHER I COULD GO ON THE --

ON THE WALKWAY?

ON THE CATWALK?

YEAH, ON THE CATWALK, PLEASE?

THANK YOU.

Le: IT'S COOL.

YEAH, THIS IS NICE.

[ Laughs ] THIS IS LIKE "APOCALYPSE NOW."

THE FRAME'S NOT RIGHT.

MY FRAME SHOULD BE HERE.

IT'S VERY BEAUTIFUL.

MY CAMERA'S WOOD.

IT'S AN OLD DEARDORFF.

IT'S A SUBSTANTIAL

AND CUMBERSOME CAMERA.

BECAUSE IT'S SO CUMBERSOME,

IT MAKES ME MAKE A PARTICULAR TYPE OF PICTURE.

I THINK IT FORCES ME TO RESOLVE QUESTIONS.

SO FOR EXAMPLE,

PHOTOGRAPHING MILITARY EXERCISES,

I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT I HAVE TO GO THROUGH TO MAKE IT WORK.

AND I THINK IT FORCES ME TO MAKE A PARTICULAR TYPE OF PICTURE.

THIS IS AMAZING!

WITHOUT REALLY BEING CONSCIOUS ABOUT IT,

I THINK I'VE ALWAYS TRIED TO UNDERSTAND

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF WAR AND WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN

TO LIVE THROUGH TIMES OF TURBULENCE LIKE THAT.

AND I THINK A LOT OF THOSE QUESTIONS SORT OF FUEL MY WORK.

WHEN I FIRST MADE THE PICTURES IN VIETNAM,

I WAS NOT AT ALL READY TO EVEN DEAL WITH THE WAR.

WAR WAS PART OF LIFE FOR US.

AND I'VE GONE TO SCHOOL AS A 7-YEAR-OLD

AND ARRIVING AND FINDING THE FRONT GATE OF MY SCHOOL

IN SMOKE, BECAUSE A MORTAR HAD JUST FALLEN THERE,

YOU KNOW, AT 5:30 IN THE MORNING.

SO IT -- IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE TAKE WITH A STRIDE.

I THINK IT WAS AFFECTING OUR PARENTS A LOT MORE.

AS SOON AS I GOT TO VIETNAM,

I REALIZED THAT I WAS NOT SO INTERESTED

IN THE SPECIFIC PSYCHOLOGY OF EACH PERSON,

BUT I WAS MORE INTERESTED IN THEIR ACTIVITIES,

WHAT THEY DO AND HOW THAT ACTIVITY

IS SPLAYED ONTO THE LANDSCAPE.

IT'S THAT BEAUTY THAT I WANTED TO EMBRACE IN MY WORK.

FOR ME, BEING ABLE TO GO BACK TO VIETNAM

AND MAKE THOSE PICTURES WAS A WAY TO RECONNECT

WITH A HOMELAND OR THIS IDEA OF WHAT A HOMELAND IS.

YOU KNOW.

WHEN YOU LIVE IN EXILE, THINGS LIKE SMELL,

AND MEMORIES, STORIES YOU HEAR FROM YOUR CHILDHOOD,

ALL THOSE THINGS TAKE ON SUCH IMPORTANCE,

THINGS THAT REALLY CONNECT YOU TO THE LAND.

AND UNFORTUNATELY PICTURES DON'T SMELL,

BUT IF I COULD DO THAT, IT WOULD BE ABOUT SMELLS AS WELL.

IS THIS STRAIGHT, JOHN?

YEAH.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO CALL THIS?

UH, OFF-LOAD.

NO, NO, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO CALL THIS SHOOT?

UH...

YOU MEAN A TITLE?

WELL, FOR JUST -- YOU'VE GOT TO CALL IT SOMETHING.

BUT IT'S TECHNICALLY AN OFF-LOAD.

YOU HAVE TO... LIKE, LIKE IT...

IT'S RETURNING FROM IRAQ.

IT'S A REALLY LONG TITLE.

JUST FOR THE SAKE OF NAMING IT IN "FINAL CUT,"

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO CALL IT?

UH, JUST CALL IT...

BEACH... BEACH LANDING?

YEAH?

YEAH.

I THINK EACH BODIES OF WORK GROWS OUT OF THE NEXT ONE,

BECAUSE I THINK YOU RESOLVE SOMETHING AND THEN YOU FEEL

READY TO MOVE ON, TO TACKLE ANOTHER ISSUE.

AND CERTAINLY, AFTER VIETNAM IT WAS OBVIOUS

THAT I HAD NOT TACKLED THE ISSUE OF WAR.

WORKING WITH THE RE-ENACTORS JUST BECAME SUCH AN OPPORTUNITY.

THE FIRST TIME SHE WENT DOWN, SHE WENT DOWN BY HERSELF,

AND I GOT TO SAY I WAS NOT --

THAT WAS ONE TIME, IN ALL THE THINGS SHE'S DONE,

THAT WAS LIKE THE ONE TIME I DIDN'T --

I WAS JUST CONCERNED, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE SHE DIDN'T KNOW

ANYTHING ABOUT THESE GUYS,

AND SHE FOUND THEM ON THE INTERNET.

AND THE WHOLE IDEA OF SHE'S GOING DOWN

TO GO OUT INTO THE WOODS FOR THE WEEKEND WITH A BUNCH OF

KIND OF PARAMILITARY GUYS.

Le: WORKING WITH THE RE-ENACTORS WAS VERY DIFFICULT

BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR OWN ACTIVITY,

AND I NEEDED TO INTERRUPT THEM, TO SET UP MY OWN PICTURES.

AND AT ONE POINT THERE WAS THIS ISSUE OF, WELL,

SHOULD I COMPLETELY DIRECT THEM?

SHOULD I HIRE THEM?

SHOULD I HIRE ACTORS?

AND UH, I'M -- I'M REALLY GLAD

THAT I DIDN'T BECAUSE I THINK

NOT HAVING COMPLETE CONTROL WAS VERY INTERESTING.

I THINK IT CREATED THESE MOMENTS OF UNCERTAINTY.

BLACK AND WHITE WAS ALWAYS MY CHOICE

BECAUSE OF MY INTEREST IN THE DRAWINGS OF THINGS.

IN THIS PICTURE, FOR EXAMPLE,

YOU KNOW, IT WAS THE DRAWING OF THE BRANCHES COMING DOWN,

THE DRAWING OF THE CREEK.

WE ADDED THE SMOKE.

UH, YOU KNOW, THIS ONE SPECIAL FORCE GUY OR RE-ENACTOR

HIDING BEHIND THIS.

SO IT WAS VERY CLEAR IN MY MIND

WHAT THE DRAWING OF THE LANDSCAPE WOULD BE.

IN COLOR, IT'S NOT SO CLEAR.

I THINK IN TERMS OF SPACE, AND THEN IT WOULD BE

ABOUT THE SPACE THAT'S IN BETWEEN THE GREEN

AND THE ACTUAL RIDGE HERE.

I THINK IN BLACK AND WHITE I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF --

I THINK I WOULD HAVE MADE A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PICTURE.

I'M NOT SURE HOW TO EXPLAIN IT.

I THINK THIS WAS A BLACK AND WHITE PICTURE

THAT I MADE IN COLOR, BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED

IN ALL THE LINES HERE,

AND THE LADDER EFFECT HERE OF THE RIDGE.

AND I THINK IT WAS ONLY AFTERWARDS

THAT I NOTICED HOW BEAUTIFUL THE GRADATION OF GREENS WAS

FROM THE BOTTOM TO THE TOP.

I THINK OF MYSELF AS A LANDSCAPE PHOTOGRAPHER.

I THINK MY MAIN GOAL IS TO TRY TO PHOTOGRAPH LANDSCAPE

IN SUCH A WAY SO THAT HISTORY

COULD BE SUGGESTED THROUGH THE LANDSCAPE,

WHETHER INDUSTRIAL HISTORY OR MY PERSONAL HISTORY.

HAVE THEM STOP NOW.

RIGHT THERE?

YEAH, THAT'S PERFECT.

THAT'S FINE, DO IT RIGHT THERE WHERE HE IS.

Le: OKAY.

WE'LL GO IN ONE MINUTE.

Man: 10 SECONDS.

OOH.

THANK YOU, STEVE.

Steve: NO PROBLEM.

THE LIGHT'S PERFECT.

WISH IT WASN'T RAINING.

BUT IT IS.

Le: I TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM LIGHT THAT'S TOO DRAMATIC.

I TRY NOT TO USE LIGHT TOO MUCH

AS SOME KIND OF DRAMATIC COUNTERPOINT.

Man on radio: 10 SECONDS.

Le: I THINK I'D RATHER HAVE SOMETHING ELSE --

Man: 8 SECONDS.

Le: ADD THAT ELEMENT OF DRAMA.

Man: FIRE IN THE HOLE.

Le: AND I WAS VERY DISTRAUGHT

WHEN THE WAR STARTED IN MARCH OF 2003

AND I FELT MY HEART GOING OUT FOR THE SOLDIERS,

THE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN WHO WERE BEING SENT TO IRAQ.

MY IMMEDIATE IMPULSE WAS TO GO TO IRAQ.

AND WHEN THAT DID NOT WORK OUT,

AND I SAW PICTURES OF MARINES TRAINING IN TWENTYNINE PALMS,

I THOUGHT, WELL,

TWENTYNINE PALMS COULD BE A STAND-IN FOR IRAQ.

AND WHY NOT?

WHEN I'M WORKING WITH THE MILITARY,

I STILL THINK OF LANDSCAPE.

SCALE IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO ME

BECAUSE IT SHOWS HOW INSIGNIFICANT WE ARE.

AND ESPECIALLY WITH THE MILITARY,

NO MATTER HOW ADVANCED, HOW HARD WE WORK,

IT'S STILL ABOUT TRANSPORTING, YOU KNOW,

ALL OF THESE INCREDIBLE NEW TANKS ACROSS VAST LANDSCAPES.

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE UP AGAINST AND --

AND IT'S ABOUT REALLY TRYING TO CAPTURE THAT.

AND IT'S ABOUT ALSO REALLY TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF IT,

AND THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE AN ACTIVITY.

I MEAN I THINK I IMMEDIATELY REALIZED THAT THE KIND OF WORK

THAT I MAKE IS NOT THE STANDARD, TRADITIONAL POLITICAL WORK.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT AGITPROP.

ARE THEY GETTING BACK ON THE SHIP?

Man: ALL THEIR GEAR IS IN THE BACK RIGHT NOW.

ALL THE SEA BAGS AND PACKS AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

Le: AND I THINK WAR IS VERY COMPLICATED,

IT'S NOT BLACK AND WHITE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WHAT IT IS MEANT TO DO IS --

IS JUST HORRIBLE.

Man: YOU WANT THE STUFF WHEN THEY'RE PUTTING THE STUFF DOWN?

Le: NO, NO, NO.

YEAH, NO, I'M DONE.

THAT'S ALL I WANTED.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHY THE WORK SEEMS AMBIGUOUS AND IT'S --

IT'S MEANT TO BE.

Pilson: SO WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, BABE?

Le: IT'S THE -- THE FAMILIES WAITING FOR THE --

THE MARINES TO ACTUALLY GET OFF THE SHIP AND COME IN

AND REUNITE WITH THEM.

SO WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THIS WAS SHOT?

STANDING NEXT TO HIM.

UH-HUH, WHAT KIND OF DIRECTION DID YOU GIVE HIM?

Le: I JUST CHOSE THE LENS AND PICKED OUT THE PEOPLE.

I WAS ORIGINALLY THINKING OF CONTRASTING IT

WITH THE FOOTAGE OF THE ACTUAL OFF-LOAD OF THE HARD GEAR,

SO IT WOULD BE A TWO-CHANNEL PIECE.

AND THIS IS THEM ACTUALLY COMING IN, WALKING DOWN IN FORMATION.

[ CHEERS ]

LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT --

[ CHEERS ]

Woman: OH, THERE HE IS!

OH, WELCOME HOME!

Man: HOW OLD IS SHE?

SHE IS SEVEN MONTHS TOMORROW.

YEAH, IT WAS EASY.

Le: I AM NOT CATEGORICALLY AGAINST WAR,

BUT I THINK WE NEED TO, YOU KNOW,

TRY TO AVOID IT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

Jaar: I STRONGLY BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF A SINGLE IDEA.

SO THE MOST DIFFICULT THING FOR ME

IS TO ARRIVE AT THE ESSENCE OF WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.

AND WHEN YOU REACH THAT ESSENTIAL IDEA,

IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

I COULD SAY THAT EVERYTHING I KNOW ABOUT ART,

I LEARN IT WHEN STUDYING ARCHITECTURE.

I APPROACH ART AS AN ARCHITECT.

AND AS AN ARCHITECT I GIVE MYSELF A PROGRAM,

SO THIS PROGRAM WILL TAKE INTO ACCOUNT A SPACE.

STUDYING THAT SPACE, I TRY TO REACH

WHAT WE CALL THE ESSENCE OF THE SPACE.

AND THEN I COMBINE THAT ESSENCE,

THAT FINDING WITH THE ESSENCE

OF WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY.

EVERY SINGLE ELEMENT HAS BEEN THOUGHT OF AND DESIGNED.

NOTHING IS ARBITRARY, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

THE WORK HAS BEEN FABRICATED BY ENGINEERS,

OR BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE

THE RIGHT SKILLS FOR THE RIGHT INSTALLATIONS I'M WORKING WITH.

I'M AT A POINT WHERE

THE MOST FASCINATING PROCESS FOR ME IS JUST TO THINK,

TO THINK, TO THINK, AND TO THINK --

AND THEN TO LET SOMEONE ELSE EXECUTE THE PROJECT.

[ MUSIC PLAYS ]

I HAVE BEEN INCAPABLE IN MY CAREER TO EVER,

EVER CREATE A SINGLE WORK OF ART

THAT IS JUST COMING FROM MY IMAGINATION.

MY IMAGINATION STARTS WORKING BASED ON RESEARCH,

BASED ON A REAL LIFE EVENT,

MOST OF THE TIME A TRAGEDY THAT I'M JUST STARTING TO ANALYZE,

TO REFLECT ON IT AND TO -- TO ACCUMULATE INFORMATION.

BUT THE ORIGINAL IMPULSE

IS THIS REAL LIFE EVENT WHICH I'M TRYING TO RESPOND TO.

SO IN THE CASE OF RWANDA,

I STARTED FOLLOWING THE TRAGEDY FROM THE BEGINNING.

I WAS OUTRAGED, HOW WE WERE TOLD,

THIS IS HAPPENING, THIS IS HAPPENING.

YESTERDAY 35,000 BODIES WERE RECOVERED,

THEY WERE FLOATING ON THE KAGERA RIVER.

35,000 BODIES --

AND IT WAS JUST A FIVE-LINE STORY ON PAGE 7.

SO...

SO I WAS FOLLOWING THIS STORY AND I REACHED A LIMIT

AND I THOUGHT, WELL, I HAVE TO GO, I HAVE TO GO.

I HAVE --

THERE IS SOMETHING I WOULD LIKE TO SAY ABOUT THIS.

AND THEN SO I JUST WENT.

AND IT WAS THE MOST HORRIFIC EXPERIENCE IN MY LIFE.

I WAS GETTING INTO HUGE DILEMMAS, HOW --

HOW DO YOU REPRESENT THIS,

RESPECTING THE DIGNITY OF THE PEOPLE

YOU ARE FOCUSING ON?

SO THAT'S WHY THE RWANDA PROJECT LASTED SIX YEARS,

AND IT'S MY LONGEST PROJECT TO DATE.

I END UP DOING 21 DIFFERENT PIECES WITHIN THOSE SIX YEARS --

AND THEY ALL FAILED.

THAT'S WHY I KEPT GOING,

LOOKING FOR THE PERFECT WAY

TO COMMUNICATE TO MY AUDIENCE THAT EXPERIENCE.

AND OF COURSE, THERE IS NO WAY.

THERE IS THIS HUGE GAP BETWEEN REALITY

AND ITS POSSIBLE REPRESENTATIONS.

AND THAT GAP IS IMPOSSIBLE TO CLOSE.

SO AS ARTISTS WE HAVE TO TRY DIFFERENT STRATEGIES

OF REPRESENTATION.

AND "THE SILENCE OF NDUWAYEZU" IS JUST ONE MORE ATTEMPT

TO REPRESENT A VERY DIFFICULT AND TRAGIC SITUATION.

WHEN WE SAY A MILLION DEAD, IT'S MEANINGLESS.

SO THE -- THE STRATEGY WAS TO --

TO REDUCE THE SCALE TO A SINGLE HUMAN BEING

WITH A NAME, WITH A STORY.

AND THAT HELPS THE AUDIENCE TO IDENTIFY WITH THAT PERSON.

AND THIS PROCESS OF IDENTIFICATION

IS FUNDAMENTAL TO CREATE EMPATHY,O CREATE SOLIDARITY,

TO CREATE INTELLECTUAL INVOLVEMENT.

THE TEXT AT THE ENTRANCE TELLS YOU A STORY.

I VISITED A REFUGEE CAMP AND NDUWAYEZU WAS SEATED

ON THE STAIRS OF A DOOR OF A SCHOOL

THAT THEY HAD RECREATED INSIDE THE REFUGEE CAMP.

NDUWAYEZU ACTUALLY SAW WITH HIS OWN EYES

HIS MOTHER AND HIS FATHER KILLED WITH MACHETES.

HIS REACTION WAS TO REMAIN SILENT

FOR APPROXIMATELY FOUR WEEKS -- HE COULDN'T SPEAK.

FOR ME, THE HEART OF AN EXHIBITION

IS REALLY THE SPIRIT OF THE ARTIST.

THE SPIRIT OF WHAT HE'S TRYING TO COMMUNICATE.

I WANT PEOPLE TO --

TO WALK IN THAT SPACE AND TO FEEL THAT

THEY HAVE ENTERED INTO A MODEL OF THINKING

AND OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD.

COMING BACK TO CHILE, COMING BACK AS AN ARTIST IS --

IS AN INCREDIBLY MOVING EXPERIENCE.

[ SPEAKING SPANISH ]

IT WAS INCREDIBLY MOVING FOR ME TO SHARE MY WORK

FOR THE FIRST TIME WITH ALL OF MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY.

IT WAS ALMOST LIKE STARTING FROM SCRATCH,

BECAUSE THEY WERE EXPERIENCING IT FOR THE FIRST TIME.

[ SPEAKING SPANISH ]

IT'S A VERY, VERY EMOTIONAL SITUATION, INCREDIBLY EMOTIONAL.

AT THE AGE OF 5,

MY FATHER DECIDES TO MOVE

TO THIS FRENCH ISLAND CALLED MARTINIQUE.

AND WE LIVED THERE FOR 10 MARVELOUS YEARS.

AND THEN AT THE AGE OF 15, MY FATHER ANNOUNCES,

OKAY, WE'RE GOING BACK.

AND WE MOVED BACK TO CHILE,

WHICH WAS DURING ALLENDE'S PERIOD.

AND SO WE ARRIVED IN A COUNTRY INCREDIBLY DIVIDED.

HOLA.

COMO ESTAS?

Jaar: I'M SO OBSESSED WITH -- WITH COMMUNICATING

A VERY SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF INFORMATION TO THE AUDIENCE.

AND UH, ONE VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENT

IS THE ECONOMY OF MEANS.

♫MUXIMA...OH, OH, MUXIMA♫

♫OH, OH, MUXIMA♫

Jaar: MUXIMA IS DIVIDED IN 10 CANTOS.

♫MUXIMA...OH, OH, MUXIMA♫

♫OH, OH, MUXIMA♫

AND EACH CANTO IN ITSELF

IS STRUCTURED AS A HAIKU, WHICH IS A SHORT JAPANESE POEM.

WHAT FASCINATES ME ABOUT HAIKUS IS

THE CAPACITY FOR 15, 17 WORDS TO COMMUNICATE AN ENTIRE WORLD.

MY WAY OF THINKING IS PRETTY CARTESIAN,

AND IT'S COMING FROM MY FRENCH EDUCATION.

I'M VERY LOGICAL.

TO MAKE SENSE FOR ME IS --

IS A VERY ESSENTIAL ASPECT OF THE WORK.

[ SINGING IN SPANISH ]

Jaar: I WAS INCREDIBLY SHY WHEN I WAS A KID,

SO MY FATHER TOOK ME TO A PSYCHIATRIST,

AND THE PSYCHIATRIST GAVE HIM TWO OR THREE CHOICES

TO HELP ME TO OVERCOME THIS SHYNESS.

SO HE BROUGHT ME HOME A LITTLE BOX OF MAGIC.

AND I GOT INTO THIS WORLD AND I BECAME A MAGICIAN.

AND TO BE A MAGICIAN HELPED ME

TO CONFRONT THE AUDIENCE.

AND TO DO SOMETHING WHEN THEY KNEW

THAT I WAS TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING,

BUT THEY DON'T SEE IT.

WHAT THEY SEE IS THE MAGIC.

BEFORE MOVING INTO FILMMAKING I WAS AN ACTOR

AND I DID A LOT OF THEATER.

I WROTE PLAYS AND I DIRECTED PLAYS.

AND SO WHEN YOU COMBINE THE WORLD OF MAGIC,

THE WORLD OF THEATER,

AND SO THOSE TWO THINGS PLUS MY --

MY BACKGROUND AS AN ARCHITECT, EVERYTHING IS THERE.

AND THAT MISE-EN-SCENE THAT YOU SEE

IS REALLY A RESULT OF THOSE THINGS.

I HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT THIS STUFF.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO INCORPORATE BEAUTY IN THE WORK

BECAUSE IT'S PART OF LIFE.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD JUST STAY WITH BEAUTY.

AND WE SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID SOMETIMES

TO CONFRONT BEAUTY AND HORROR,

AND "LET ONE HUNDRED FLOWERS BLOOM"

PROBABLY DOES THAT IN A VERY DIRECT WAY.

AND IT'S BASED ON A CHINESE POEM THAT MAO USED TO --

TO THROW A CAMPAIGN ASKING INTELLECTUALS TO PARTICIPATE

IN THE LIFE OF THE REVOLUTION IN THE '50s.

"LET ONE HUNDRED FLOWERS BLOOM,

LET ONE HUNDRED SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT CONTEND."

AFTER ONE YEAR, BECAUSE INTELLECTUALS WERE SUSPICIOUS

OF MAO'S INTENTIONS, THEY FINALLY GAVE IN,

AND THEY STARTED SPEAKING OUT.

AND OF COURSE THEY GAVE GREAT NEW IDEAS,

BUT THEY WERE CONTRARY TO THE IDEALS OF THE REVOLUTION.

AND THEN THEIR VOICES

WERE SUPPRESSED.

SO HERE THIS PIECE IS STANDING

AS A METAPHOR FOR THE STRUGGLE OF INTELLECTUALS

ALL OVER THE WORLD.

HERE WE HAVE 100 FLOWERS

BEING SUBMITTED TO CONTRADICTORY FORCES.

ON ONE HAND THEY ARE BEING FED WITH WATER AND LIGHT,

AND ON THE OTHER HAND THEY ARE BEING KILLED

BY STRONG INDUSTRIALS WINDS

AND STRONG COLD.

THESE FLOWERS WILL BE DYING CONTINUOUSLY.

WE WILL KEEP REPLACING THEM.

AND WHAT CONNECTS

THIS PARTICULAR WORK THAT WAS SHOWN IN ROME

FOR THE FIRST TIME WITH THE SANTIAGO SITUATION

IS THAT INSTEAD OF A VIDEO

THAT WE HAD IN ROME WITH GRAMSCI'S GRAVE,

HERE WE ARE OPENING A WINDOW INTO THE ALAMEDA.

WE ARE LESS THAN 100 METERS AWAY FROM THE LA MONEDA,

FROM THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE WHERE OUR SOCIALIST PRESIDENT,

SALVADOR ALLENDE WAS KILLED

DURING THE MILITARY COUP BY GENERAL PINOCHET.

THIS PIECE IS REALLY MAKING A LINK

WITH THE IMMEDIATE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY.

BY OPENING A LITTLE WINDOW INTO THIS GALLERY

THAT HAPPENED TO BE ON THE ALAMEDA,

A WORLD OF CONNECTION IS CREATED.

AND THAT I THINK IS EXTRAORDINARY, THE POWER OF ART

TO DO THOSE THINGS, TO CREATE CONNECTIONS,

TO MAKE BRIDGES

AND THAT FASCINATES ME.

Holzer: I LIKE MY PIECES TO BE VERY SHORT AT MOMENTS,

AND OTHER TIMES I WANT THEM TO BE SUSTAINED

AND CAPABLE OF HOLDING PEOPLE'S INTEREST.

TIME IS AN ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION

WITH THE PUBLIC WORKS BECAUSE I KNOW PEOPLE GOING BY

WON'T HAVE MUCH TIME,

SO THAT'S WHY I TEND TO MAKE VERY SHORT THINGS.

WHEN I'M WORKING INDOORS,

I WANT TO HAVE BOUNTY IF YOU WILL,

SO IF SOMEONE IS WILLING

TO LIE DOWN ON THE FLOOR, THAT THEY WILL BE REWARDED.

IT WAS MORE THAN A LITTLE INTIMIDATING

TO WORK IN THE VAN DER ROHE BUILDING IN BERLIN.

IT TOOK ME A SHOCKINGLY LONG AMOUNT OF TIME TO FIGURE OUT

THAT THE BUILDING IS A ROOF WITH GLASS WALLS.

ONCE THAT CAME TO ME, I FOCUSED ON THE ROOF

BY PUTTING THE ELECTRONICS THERE,

AND THEN LET THE GLASS WALLS GIVE ME ALL THOSE REFLECTIONS.

I WANT PEOPLE TO CONCENTRATE ON THE CONTENT OF THE WRITING

AND NOT "WHO DONE IT."

I WANT THE WORK TO BE OF UTILITY TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.

AND I THINK IF IT WERE ATTRIBUTED TO ME,

IT WOULD BE EASIER TO TOSS.

THERE ARE LOTS OF I's AND YOU's IN THE INFLAMMATORY ESSAYS,

BUT THEY'RE NOT ME, THEY'RE MANY DIFFERENT VOICES

ON A HOST OF UNMENTIONABLE SUBJECTS.

SOMEBODY WAS KIND ENOUGH TO PUT "TOP 10 FAVORITES,"

SO LET'S SEE IF THEY'RE OURS.

UM, THAT COLOR IS LESS PUTRID, SO HOW ABOUT

"FEAR IS THE MOST ELEGANT WEAPON."

I'LL DIG FOR THE NEXT ONE.

"REJOICE, OUR TIMES ARE INTOLERABLE."

FUNNY HOW THAT HAPPENS TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

YEAH, THERE YOU GO.

"THE END OF THE U.S.A." IS PROBABLY TOO VILE, RIGHT?

YEAH.

OKAY, THAT EVEN GOT TAKEN DOWN IN CANADA.

SO I GUESS THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

DAVID, THESE STARTED OUT IN THE LITTLE SIZE.

WE ALSO COULD USE THAT 'CAUSE THOSE WERE THE FIRST ONES

IN THE '80s AND IT WOULD MAKE

KIND OF A DIFFERENT PATTERN IF WE'D GO WITH THE LITTLE GUYS,

'CAUSE THEN WE COULD MAKE

A REALLY CRAZY PATCHWORK THING, ALL RIGHT.

WELL, LET'S LET THEM MARINATE IN THE BASEMENT

AND COME BACK TO THEM.

THE TRUISMS WERE PERHAPS AN OVERLY AMBITIOUS ATTEMPT.

I WANTED TO HAVE ALMOST EVERY SUBJECT REPRESENTED,

ALMOST EVERY POSSIBLE POINT OF VIEW.

AND THEN I DID HAVE TO SORT OUT

WHAT THESE SENTENCES SHOULD APPEAR UPON.

I STOPPED WRITING MY OWN TEXT IN 2001.

I FOUND THAT I COULDN'T SAY ENOUGH ADEQUATELY,

AND SO IT WAS WITH GREAT PLEASURE

THAT I WENT TO THE TEXT OF OTHERS.

I WAS INVITED TO MAKE SOMETHING FOR THE LOBBY AT 7 WORLD TRADE.

AND AFTER MUCH STEWING, CAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF DOING

TEXT IN THE WALL.

AND NOT MEMORIAL TEXT,

BUT TEXT ABOUT THE JOY OF BEING IN NEW YORK CITY.

TO MAKE THE PIECE I HAD TO MAKE QUITE A FEW SITE VISITS

AND NOT ONLY STARE AT THE SPACE, BUT WALK IT AND FEEL IT.

THE SPACE AT 7 WORLD TRADE DEMANDED THAT I FILL THE LOBBY,

IN PARTICULAR THE GLASS WALL.

AND SO I THOUGHT THAT THAT TEXT SHOULD FLOW BY, SHOULD FLOAT BY.

AND SO IT DID.

IT'S NEVER POSSIBLE TO KNOW HOW THINGS REALLY WILL LOOK

UNTIL THEY'RE UP.

SO I'M AS EAGER AS ANYONE ELSE TO SEE HOW IT WILL BE.

POETICS COME FROM THE POETRY BY OTHERS, NOT FROM MYSELF.

BUT WHAT I CAN CONTRIBUTE IS SOMETHING LIKE A VISUAL POETICS

THAT CAN HAVE TO DO WITH THE COLOR AND THE PAUSES,

THE OMISSIONS.

YEAH, I THOUGHT MAYBE AFTERWARDS WE COULD WORK

ON THE POEM SELECTION.

SO IF YOU'RE GAME, THAT WOULD BE REALLY HANDY.

HENRI COLE AND I WERE BOTH FELLOWS

AT THE AMERICAN ACADEMY IN BERLIN.

THE MEM-- "MEMOIRS OF HADRIAN"?

OOH, THAT COULD BE PERFECT

IF WE HAPPEN TO GET THAT LOCATION.

Cole: JENNY PROJECTED A POEM OF MINE CALLED "BLUR."

IT'S A SONNET SEQUENCE,

ON THE POLICE HEADQUARTERS OF VENICE,

WHICH IS ACROSS FROM THE PEGGY GUGGENHEIM MUSEUM.

I GUESS IT WAS A BUILDING OF FEAR

TO VENETIANS DURING THE WAR.

AND MY POEM WAS A --

A VERY, UH, KIND OF NAKED LOVE POEM,

AND TO PROJECT THAT ONTO THIS SCARY BUILDING

WAS INTERESTING AND MEANINGFUL AND --

SUBSTITUTING ONE KIND OF FEAR FOR ANOTHER ONE.

YEAH.

YEAH, WE HAD TWO PROJECTORS,

SO THE LIGHT CROSSED OVER THE GRAND CANAL,

AND SO WE WOULD HAVE THE SAME POEM ON THE PEGGY GUGGENHEIM

AS ON THE POLICE STATION.

I STARTED DOING THE PROJECTIONS IN 1996

AND HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THOSE SINCE.

THESE ARE EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL PROJECTORS.

AND BECAUSE THEY'RE SO BRIGHT,

THEY LET ME THROW TEXT ON RIVERS

OF SOME SIZE AND ON GIANT BUILDINGS.

IT SEEMS ACCURATE TO HAVE THE TEXT LEGIBLE

AND SO KNOWABLE, AND THEN A SECOND LATER TO DISAPPEAR

INTO FRACTURED REFLECTIONS

IN A FORM THAT'S ALMOST UNRECOGNIZABLE.

Cole: CAN YOU IMAGINE MAKING ART WITHOUT WORDS?

Holzer: I'VE DONE IT A FEW TIMES,

AND IT WAS A PLEASURE AND A RELIEF.

UH, OR DONE IT WITH VERY FEW WORDS.

DO YOU WANT TO HELP ME PICK ORWELL PAGES?

WE WANT TO MAKE A -- A PRINT OF SOME OF THEM

AND THEN ALSO MAKE SOME INTO PAINTINGS.

SO I WOULD LIKE YOUR TAKE ON IT.

'CAUSE I'VE LOOKED AT IT A FEW TIMES TOO MANY

AND I'M GETTING BLIND TO IT.

OKAY.

THE REDACTION PAINTINGS INCLUDE MANY PAGES

THAT ARE ALMOST COMPLETELY BLACKED OUT,

THAT BEFORE THE DOCUMENTS

WERE RELEASED THE GOVERNMENT BLACKENED OR EXCISED PORTIONS

FOR SECURITY OR UNKNOWABLE REASONS.

YOU KNOW, FIRST I WAS JUST GOING TO HAVE THESE PAGES

AND I THOUGHT EVERYBODY WOULD GET IT.

THESE FOUR PAGES.

I SEE.

YEAH, BUT THEN I THOUGHT MAYBE INCLUDING WHAT WAS

IN THE FIRST OF THE FILE AND THEN HAVE A NUMBER

OF THESE DARK TO LIGHT THAT WE HAVE JUST A COUPLE OF PAGES

WITH REAL CONTENT.

YOU KNOW, THAT IT SAYS, "ORWELL'S BOOK

"IS ONE OF THE FEW POLITICALLY CLEAR PICTURES

OF THE COMPLEX SITUATION DURING THE FIRST YEAR OF THE WAR."

YOU KNOW, SO THERE'S SOME REFERENCE TO WAR.

THAT'S MORE THAN I'VE SAID IN 12 YEARS.

YEAH.

Holzer: I'VE ONLY WORKED WITH MATERIAL

THAT ALREADY HAS BEEN RELEASED.

I HAVE NOT DONE ANY FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST

ON MY OWN BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH TO SIFT THROUGH

THAT'S ALREADY OUT.

I'M DEDICATED TO HAVING PLANS, BUT THEN WHEN I GET HERE,

ABOUT 50% OF WHAT I'VE SCHEMED ABOUT PERTAINS,

AND THE REST IS NEWS TO ME AS I GO.

WE OFTEN COME THINKING

THAT A WORK WILL BE A TWO-PAGER OR A TEN-PAGER.

THAT TENDS TO PERSIST.

WHAT WILL CHANGE OFTEN WILL BE COLORS.

THESE ARE SOME OF THE MORE HEAVILY REDACTED ONES

THAT'LL LET US GO FROM ALMOST COMPLETE BLACK

DOWN TO JUST A SINGLE LINE.

THIS WAS LIFTED FROM AN EARLY RENAISSANCE PAINTING.

THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF THE SKY AND YOU CAN SEE

THE MERGE FROM DARK TO LIGHT.

IN SOME OF THESE PAINTINGS

I THINK WE'LL HAVE THE DARK PART ON TOP

BECAUSE IT WILL BE A LITTLE MORE OMINOUS,

A LITTLE MORE OPPRESSIVE.

AND OTHER TIMES WE WILL HAVE THE LIGHT, UH, SO.

YEAH, THAT'S A -- A BOLD ONE.

THIS IS A LETTER, IT'S A FATHER APPEALING TO THE MILITARY

SO THAT THE SON ISN'T CHARGED CRIMINALLY.

SO BLUE SEEMS RIGHT.

IT'S DIGNIFIED.

WHERE'S THE SECOND PAGE OF THAT, MARK?

THAT'S GOOD ON THIS PART OF IT.

YOU WANT TO FLIP IT?

SEE HOW IT LOOKS WITH THE DARK?

OH, YEAH, MAYBE.

YEAH, THAT LOOKS LIKE DARK SKY.

YEAH.

"I BEG OF YOU AS A FATHER FOR MY SON'S LIFE."

MOST OF THE PAINTINGS ARE ONLY THREE TIMES PAGE SIZE

BECAUSE I WANTED THEM TO REFER TO THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTS.

OTHER ONES I MADE VERY, VERY TALL

SO THAT THEY WOULD BE PHYSICALLY OVERWHELMING.

IN ADDITION TO HAVING ALL THE PAINTINGS,

ALL THE STILL WORKS IF YOU WILL,

I WANTED TO HAVE ONE MOVING MESSAGE PIECE SO THAT

I COULD INCLUDE MORE TEXT THAN I COULD

IN THE PAINTINGS.

SO WE HAD ANY NUMBER

OF THE DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS TRANSCRIBED

AND WE SHOWED THEM ON LEDs SO THAT THIS WOULD STREAM BY

LIKE MORE BAD NEWS THAN ONE CAN BEAR.

I'VE ALWAYS ADMIRED GOYA'S BLACK PAINTINGS.

I'VE BEEN WALKING UP TO THE BLACK PAINTINGS

FOR SO MANY YEARS AND COULDN'T FIGURE OUT

WHAT THAT MEANT TO ME.

AND WHEN THIS MATERIAL STARTED COMING OUT

ABOUT THE CONFLICT IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ

AND THE CAMPS IN THE MIDDLE EAST

AND IN GUANTANAMO, GOYA WAS AT HAND.

I DO TEND TO MAKE WORK THAT FOCUSES ON CRUELTY

IN HOPES THAT PEOPLE WILL RECOIL.

MY GRANDMOTHER WAS A HORSE GENIUS,

SO I ALWAYS TURN TO THE PONIES

TO CALM MYSELF.

HELLO, ANDY.

HELLO, OLD GUY.

HI, BUDDY.

USUALLY NOTHING TOO AWFUL

HAPPENS IN THE BARN AT NIGHT.

AND IF IT DOES, WE OFTEN CAN FIX IT.

WHAT COULD BE MORE SOOTHING?

LOOK AT THAT, COMMENTARY.

[ Laughs ]

I AGREE, IT WAS ABOUT WORTH THAT.

I WANT TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO WORK,

TO PULL FROM GOOD AND GHASTLY TEXT,

TO OFFER THESE TO PEOPLE

AND TO PRESENT THEM IN WAYS THAT ARE LOVELY AND EXACTING.

NEXT TIME TO LEARN MORE ABOUT "art:21 --

ART IN THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY"

AND ITS EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES,

PLEASE VISIT US ONLINE AT PBS.ORG.

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ART IN THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY,"

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