Loss & Desire

LOSS AND DESIRE.

FOR AN ACTRESS, THIS IS FAMILIAR TERRITORY.

I CAN HARDLY THINK OF A CHARACTER I'VE PLAYED

WHO HASN'T EXPERIENCED THESE FEELINGS.

FROM SAINT JOAN,

WHO DESIRES VICTORY FOR FRANCE AND FOR GOD

AND WHOSE LOSS ULTIMATELY IS THE LOSS OF HER FAITH

AND THE VOICES OF HER SAINTS --

TO MADAME CLAIRE ZACHANASSIAN,

WHOM I'M DRESSED AS NOW, IN DURRENMATT'S THE VISIT,

WHOSE DESIRE IS FOR REVENGE.

SHE WANTS THE DEATH OF A LOVER WHO SPURNED HER,

WHICH RESULTS IN THE LOSS OF HER OWN HUMANITY,

TO MADAME RANEVSKAYA IN CHEKHOV'S THE CHERRY ORCHARD,

WHOSE GREAT LOSS IS THE CHERRY ORCHARD ITSELF

WHEN IT'S CHOPPED DOWN,

WHICH EQUATES TO THE LOSS OF HER OWN CHILDHOOD, HER INNOCENCE,

WHICH SHE'S TRIED SO HARD TO RECAPTURE.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT LOSS AND DESIRE

IN RELATION TO WORKS OF ART,

WE CAN MEAN MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.

SOMETIMES ART IS ABOUT A MOMENT IN TIME.

OR IT MIGHT SUGGEST A MOOD OR AN UNATTAINABLE GOAL.

WE'RE ALL FAMILIAR WITH THE WAY MUSIC AND LITERATURE,

FROM BLUES TO OPERA, FROM MEMOIR TO POETRY,

EVOKE THESE FEELINGS.

VISUAL ART ALSO EXPLORES IDEAS ABOUT LOSS AND DESIRE.

THIS PROGRAM FEATURES THREE ARTISTS --

JANINE ANTONI, GABRIEL OROZCO, AND COLLIER SCHORR,

WHO MAKE WORK THAT IS BOTH PERSONAL AND UNIVERSAL.

WHETHER CONTEMPLATING

THE AGE-OLD HUMAN LONGING FOR PERFECTION

OR THE NATURE OF BEAUTY,

THEIR WORK RAISES QUESTIONS THAT RELATE TO ALL OF US.

Schorr: I THINK THERE IS THIS SORT OF CONFLICTING OBSESSIONS.

ONE IS KIND OF TWINSHIP AND THE OTHER IS OPPOSITION.

IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE

THAT LOOK THE SAME BUT AREN'T THE SAME.

IT'S ABOUT BOYS THAT LOOK LIKE GIRLS

OR GIRLS THAT LOOK LIKE BOYS.

OR BOYS THAT LOOK LIKE SOLDIERS IN ARMS.

I'M TRYING TO CREATE TRIBES OF PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHY I WAS SO DRAWN TO THE WRESTLING.

YOU GET THERE AND THERE'S THIS TRIBE,

AND THEY DO SORT OF LOOK A BIT SIMILAR.

THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME KIND OF BODIES.

THEIR EARS TURN THE SAME WAY IF THEY WRESTLE TOO LONG.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF TWINSHIP IN OPPOSITION,

IT BECOMES, I MEAN, IT'S A KIND OF A METAPHOR

FOR THIS, YOU KNOW, FOR THE JEW AND THE GERMAN.

GERMAN JEWS THINKING THAT THEY WERE THE SAME AS GERMANS

AND BEING SO DIFFERENT.

I DECIDED TO GO BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL

AND PHOTOGRAPH HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING.

I HAD NEVER REALLY SEEN MY WRESTLING TEAM,

BECAUSE NO ONE EVER HAD INTEREST IN WRESTLING,

AND I WAS JUST REALLY TAKEN BY THE GUYS.

I LOVED THE WAY THE GUYS LOOKED.

I LOVED THAT THEY WERE DOING SOMETHING THAT,

IN A WAY, MADE THEM SMALL OUTCASTS.

THEY WERE DOING NOT A POPULAR SPORT,

NOT A SPORT THAT PEOPLE WATCHED,

BUT A SPORT THAT -- THAT WAS REALLY DIFFICULT.

PARTICULARLY IN PRACTICE, IT'S ABOUT PARTNERSHIPS.

AND I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS A REALLY BEAUTIFUL RELATIONSHIP

THAT I HAD NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

ALL AT THE SAME TIME, I HAD HEARD

ABOUT A GUY A FRIEND OF MINE KNEW

WHO USED TO BE A REALLY BIG COLLEGE WRESTLER.

AND HE WAS SORT OF IN THE FRINGE ART WORLD

AND WE SHOULD GET TOGETHER SOMETIME.

HE'S BEEN COACHING ME AND KIND OF EXPLAINING

FROM THE POSITION OF A WRESTLER WHAT'S GOING ON.

Man: WHENEVER WE WOULD GO SOMEWHERE,

WE WOULD JUST TALK THE WHOLE TIME ABOUT WRESTLING.

AND IT WAS FUN FOR ME TO TRY

YOU KNOW, TO ANSWER HER QUESTIONS,

BECAUSE SHE WOULD ASK QUESTIONS

ABOUT THINGS THAT WERE LIKE INNATE

OR SOMETHING I KNEW AUTOMATICALLY

FROM DOING IT FOR SO LONG,

BUT I WOULD HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT

AND COME, YOU KNOW, TRY TO EXPLAIN IT TO HER.

SHE UNDERSTANDS, YOU KNOW, SHE CATCHES ON QUICKLY.

Schorr: FOR ME, YOU KNOW,

AND I CAN ONLY APPROACH IT AS A WOMAN,

BUT FOR ME, FROM THE OUTSIDE,

MASCULINITY HAS SORT OF BEEN DEPICTED

IN VERY BLACK AND WHITE TERMS.

THERE NEVER SEEMS TO BE

A WIDE RANGE OF EMOTIONAL DEFINITIONS OF MEN.

ARE YOU GUYS TWINS?

NAH.

NO?

Schorr: I LOVE WHEN I'M SHOOTING WRESTLING,

PARTICULARLY IN PRACTICE,

TO SEE TWO GUYS THROWING SOME MOVES,

AND THEN BEING CAREFUL THAT THEY DIDN'T HURT EACH OTHER.

YOU KNOW, PUSHING AS HARD AS THEY CAN BUT THEN PULLING BACK,

MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE OKAY,

TALKING ABOUT HOW TO DO IT BETTER.

ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF, I THINK, IS...

IS TO ME, A RICH PART OF MASCULINITY.

AND THEN THIS SORT OF --

OH, NOW, THIS IS THE CLASSIC WRESTLING GUY.

I JUST LOVE THIS GUY,

SEEING AS HE WON HIS MATCH, LIKE, SO FAST.

AND THEN THE NEWER PICTURES ARE,

YOU KNOW, LIKE THIS.

Schorr: I'M LOOKING FOR INTROSPECTION,

I'M LOOKING FOR

THE MOMENT BEFORE THE GUY GOES OUT THERE,

THE MOMENT WHEN HE COMES OFF,

EITHER EXHILARATED BECAUSE HE WON

OR DEVASTATED BECAUSE HE LOST.

I LIKE DEVASTATION, I LIKE EXHAUSTION.

I REALLY LIKE

SEEING SOMEONE THAT I KNOW CAN'T BARELY GET UP.

THE THING ABOUT A WRESTLING PRACTICE IS

THE COACH WILL REALLY GET EVERY LAST BIT

OF ENERGY OUT OF YOU.

AND THERE'S A PEACEFULNESS

IN THAT MOMENT THAT I REALLY LOVE,

TO SEE SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST USED THEIR ENTIRE BODY.

AS MUCH AS YOU EXPLAIN TO SOMEONE

THAT YOU WANT TO SHOW ALL SIDES OF IT,

NO ONE WHO LOST WANTS A FLASH IN THEIR FACE.

THANKS.

I JUST LOST THE MATCH HERE.

OH, SORRY, SORRY.

HAVING A WOMAN APPROACH THEM IS DIFFERENT, I THINK.

MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE WRESTLING WORLD ARE GUYS.

NO, SHOW THE TAT, SHOW THE TAT.

YEAH, BECAUSE I'M IN ART.

YOU WANT TO DRAW A PICTURE FROM THESE PICTURES?

YEAH, WELL, I'D CHANGE IT SO IT'D BE --

WOULDN'T, LIKE, STRAIGHT YOUR WORK.

OKAY, I'LL DO IT IF YOU'D MAKE A TRADE WITH ME.

OH, THAT'S FINE.

Schorr: TEENAGERS' SEXUALITY BELONGS TO THEMSELVES.

WHAT I'M DOING, I'M DOING A --

WAIT, HOLD ON.

IF I CATCH A GLIMPSE OF THEIR SEXINESS,

IT'S A SEXINESS THEY'RE PLAYING WITH AND THEY'RE PRACTICING,

BUT IT'S NOT SOMETHING I'M ASKING FOR.

I'M AWARE THAT IT'S THERE.

I'M AWARE THAT OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT SEE IT.

BUT I'M INTERESTED

IN THE LIFE I WOULD HAVE HAD IF I WAS A BOY,

AND THIS IS ONE FACET OF IT.

JUST STAY THERE.

GENDER, RELIGION, NATIONALITY,

THEY'RE ALL SORT OF THINGS THAT ARE IN FLUX IN MY WORK.

AND THEY ALL BUILD ON EACH OTHER,

THIS IDEA OF YOU'RE NOT SURE WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT

ECHOING YOU'RE NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE.

YOU'RE NOT SURE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS.

IN THE HELGA PICTURES,

I SET OUT TO CREATE

A TOTAL PORTRAIT OF A YOUNG MAN

USING ANDREW WYETH'S HELGA PAINTINGS

AS A TEMPLATE TO EXPLORE

HOW ONE DEFINES SOMEONE IN IMAGES.

AND ALSO USING A DESCRIPTION OF FEMININITY

TO DESCRIBE A MAN.

YOU START TO WONDER WITH THE ANDREW WYETH PORTRAITS,

IS IT A FEMININE POSE

OR IS IT AN ARTIST'S POSE?

IS IT WYETH'S POSE, IS IT HELGA'S POSE?

HELGA REMINDED ME SO MUCH OF JENS,

THIS BOY, JENS FUCHSLOCH.

THIS WAS JENS WHEN HE WAS 18 1/2.

AND HE WAS REALLY

QUITE SIMILAR IN THE PHYSIQUE.

AND THEN HE REALLY CHANGED HERE

WHEN HE TURNED 19 1/2.

HE GOT SLIMMER.

YOU SEE THE RESISTANCE OF THE BOY JENS.

HE'S PLAYING THIS CHARACTER.

AND THE ONLY WAY HE CAN POSE IN CERTAIN POSES

IS TO KNOW THAT EVERYONE ELSE KNOWS HE'S PLAYING HER,

THAT IT'S NOT REALLY HIM.

BUT YOU SEE MOMENTS WHERE HE FORGETS.

AND THEY'RE THE POSES THAT HE WOULD CALL NEUTRAL POSES.

AND THE FEMININE POSES ARE THE POSES THAT HE FEELS

WOMEN PERFORM FOR MEN.

IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A SUCCESSFUL PROJECT

HAD THERE NOT BEEN AN INTENSE COLLABORATION BETWEEN JENS AND I

LIKE BOTH UNDERSTANDING THAT WE BOTH WERE DOING THIS JOB

AND IT WAS SOMEWHAT DIFFICULT AND CONFUSING

AND WE HAD MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT IT,

BUT IT BECAME A KIND OF RITUAL,

LIKE, MAKING THESE PICTURES.

AND OFTEN WE'D MAKE THE SAME PICTURE OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

THERE'S THIS NOTION OF, I THINK THAT I'VE ALWAYS HAD IN MY WORK,

OF TRYING TO GET VERY CLOSE TO SOMETHING.

YOU KNOW, IT'S TRYING TO CREATE AS LITTLE DISTANCE AS POSSIBLE

BETWEEN THE VIEWER AND THE SUBJECT.

AND I THINK THAT LEVEL OF INTIMACY

THAT WYETH PURSUED

WAS REALLY FAMILIAR TO ME.

14 YEARS AGO, I WENT TO STUTTGART

WITH A GERMAN FRIEND FROM NEW YORK

AND ENDED UP IN THIS SMALL TOWN

AND MET THIS AMAZING FAMILY.

I KIND OF JUST FELL IN LOVE WITH THE WHOLE FAMILY

AND KIND OF TRADITIONAL KIND OF

COUNTRY FAMILY SETTING.

AND I GUESS ABOUT FOUR SUMMERS INTO THE RELATIONSHIP

I STARTED PHOTOGRAPHING

THE YOUNGER MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY.

IT REALLY BECAME

PART OF, I THINK, THE SUMMER EXPERIENCE,

THAT, YOU KNOW, SUMMER CAME WITH PICTURE-TAKING.

AND IT WAS THIS KIND OF BIG THING THAT HAPPENED

SOMETIMES EVERY DAY FOR A WEEK.

AND I STARTED SHOOTING HERBERT WHEN HE WAS NINE YEARS OLD.

AND HE DOESN'T EVEN REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME HE WAS SHOT.

HE HAS TO LOOK AT PICTURES TO,

TO SAY, "OH, YEAH, THAT WAS ME."

WE WOULD GO TO THE FOREST AND KIND OF PLAY SOLDIERS

WITH THE UNIFORMS AT THAT TIME,

AND PLAY HIDE-AND-SEEK.

THEN HERE IS KARIN DRESSED UP AS A GUY.

MM-HMM.

MM-HMM.

SO EVERYTHING IS, LIKE,

SO FAKE THERE, THERE'S A GIRL PLAYING A GUY,

THERE'S ALL THESE GERMAN BOYS PLAYING GROWN MEN,

AND THERE'S GERMANS PLAYING AMERICAN SOLDIERS.

AND ALL THIS CLOTHING WAS YOURS AT THAT POINT, RIGHT?

RIGHT.

'CAUSE THAT'S HOW I STARTED DOING ARMY PICTURES.

BECAUSE YOU HAD ALL THIS STUFF.

BECAUSE OF MY... ARMY NERDINESS.

YEAH, YOUR ARMY OBSESSION.

I MIGHT HAVE POSSESSED LIKE SEVEN OR EIGHT U.S.

UNIFORMS

WHEN I MET COLLIER FIRST.

WE GOT THE U.S. MILITARY UNIFORMS

PRETTY CHEAP AT FLEA MARKETS,

BECAUSE THE TROOPS WERE LEAVING TOWN AT THAT TIME,

OR THEY WERE LEAVING GERMANY.

Schorr: BUT YOU ALWAYS HAD THIS POSSE OF GUYS THAT FOR,

WHAT WAS I PAYING BACK IN THE OLD DAYS,

LIKE 10 MARKS AN HOUR?

[ SPEAKING GERMAN ]

Schorr: YOU CAN'T GO TO A LAKE

WITH A BUNCH OF TEENAGE BOYS AND NOT HAVE A PLAN.

YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE A PLAN.

WHEN WE'RE KIND OF MARCHING

AROUND THE LAKE, I MAY SAY,

"OKAY, HERBERT, YOU KNOW, HOLD ANDREAS' SHOULDER."

AND THEY'LL JUST KIND OF POSE LIKE THAT.

AND THAT'S A PICTURE, IT'S NOT A PICTURE I PLANNED,

BUT IT'S A PICTURE I SAW.

WHEN YOU'RE A JEW AND YOU WALK AROUND IN GERMANY,

IT HAS SUCH A HOLD ON YOU.

AND I WANTED TO SEE IT FROM ALL SIDES.

I ALWAYS SAW IT FROM THE SIDE OF, YOU KNOW,

THE JEW WHO FELT VICTIMIZED OR THE JEW WHO FELT OPPRESSED.

AND I WAS VERY COMFORTABLE IN THAT ROLE FOR MANY YEARS.

BUT BEING IN GERMANY FOR --

FOR A LONGER AMOUNT OF TIME, MY EXPERIENCE CHANGED,

MY RELATIONSHIP CHANGED TO THE COUNTRY,

AND MY CURIOSITY ABOUT

WHAT IT WAS LIKE FROM THE OTHER SIDE

KIND OF OPENED ME UP.

SO MUCH OF MY WORK, ESPECIALLY PORTRAITS

OF LARGE, BLOND, STRONG GUYS, IS REALLY ABOUT

CONFRONTING A SORT OF ARYAN MYTH

THAT TERRIFIED ME AS A LITTLE GIRL.

BECAUSE I WOULD READ BOOKS LIKE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK

AND THINGS LIKE THAT, AND THAT WAS WHAT YOU WERE SCARED OF,

THAT WAS THE JEWISH GIRL'S BOGEYMAN,

YOU KNOW, THE BIG BLOND GUY KIND OF COMING UP THE STAIRS.

Schorr: ONE...TWO...THREE.

I MEAN, I THINK ALL THE BOYS REALLY ENJOYED PLAYING HEROES

OR PLAYING GOOD GUYS.

AND SO IT WAS STRANGE TO BRING IN THE NAZI UNIFORMS,

BECAUSE THEY WERE SUDDENLY CONFRONTED WITH SOMETHING

THAT THEY DIDN'T FEEL VERY POSITIVE ABOUT,

OR THEY WERE AFRAID TO FEEL POSITIVE ABOUT.

AND SO I THINK THOSE PICTURES HAVE AN INTERESTING QUALITY

THAT SEPARATES THEM FROM THE OTHER ONES,

BECAUSE THERE'S A REAL UNCERTAINTY

IN THEIR EXPRESSIONS AND THEIR POSTURE.

Herman: THE GERMAN YOUTH HAS SOME KIND OF A, UM,

A TORN-APART RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS KIND OF STUFF.

YOU WON'T SEE A SWASTIKA ANYPLACE

BECAUSE IT'S FORBIDDEN BY LAW, IT'S NOT LEGAL.

AND SO, BESIDES RUNNING THE RISK THAT YOU COULD BE PUNISHED

FOR WEARING WEHRMACHT AND S.S.

UNIFORMS IN PUBLIC,

YOU WERE SIMPLY NOT USED TO IT, BECAUSE,

YOU WOULD SEE THE STUFF NOT EVEN IN MUSEUMS.

PROBABLY YOU WOULD SEE IT IN A FEATURE FILM FROM THAT TIME,

IN AN AMERICAN FEATURE FILM, NOT EVEN A GERMAN ONE.

Schorr: SO MANY THINGS ARE BURIED

IN THE LANDSCAPE IN GERMANY,

SO MANY UNIFORMS AND MEDALS.

AND YOU HEAR STORIES

OF PEOPLE COMING UPON BUTTONS AND HELMETS IN THE FIELDS.

AND I THINK THAT I REALLY WANTED TO FLESH SOME OF THAT UP,

TO DIG SOME OF THAT UP, AND TO ALMOST,

THAT SOME OF THESE SOLDIERS SEEM TO HAVE COME UP FROM THE GROUND,

SO THAT IF YOU WERE WALKING IN THE FIELD

AND YOU SAW A HELMET,

IT WAS AS THOUGH THE SOLDIER ROSE UP WITH THAT HELMET.

AND HE DIDN'T RISE UP AS THE ULTIMATE VILLAIN.

AND HE DIDN'T RISE UP AS THE ULTIMATE VICTIM.

HE ROSE UP AS --

AS JUST A GUY, YOU KNOW, WHO FOUGHT,

JUST A GUY WHO DIED,

JUST A GUY WHO KILLED SOMEONE.

THE LUFTWAFFE.

UH-HUH.

I LIKE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THIS CURRENT,

JOACHIM AS THIS CURRENT SOLDIER,

WITH THESE NAZIS.

BECAUSE IT REALLY LOOKS LIKE, TO ME,

HE REPRESENTS THE WHOLE GERMAN ARMY

THAT SITS IN THE WOODS AND MAYBE DAYDREAMS.

IF THE FOREST IS THE PRIDE OF GERMANY, THEN, YOU KNOW,

LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE FOREST.

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT MAKING SOMETHING

THAT'S ABOUT THE FACADE.

I'M MAKING SOMETHING THAT'S ABOUT REMOVING

THE MYTH, AND THEN BEING LEFT WITH SOMETHING

THAT IS MORE HUMAN.

THERE'S NOT A SINGLE INTENTION THAT I WANT PEOPLE

TO WALK AWAY WITH WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE BODY OF WORK.

IF I WANTED TO MAKE WORK THAT SPOKE TO AS MANY PEOPLE'S

DESIRE AS POSSIBLE, BE IT A SORT OF MATERNAL DESIRE

OR A FRATERNAL DESIRE,

THE DESIRE TO REVISIT YOUR YOUTH,

THE DESIRE FOR ROMANCE --

FOR ME, THERE IS NO PROGRESS UNLESS YOU PUT THINGS FORWARD,

UNLESS YOU SORT OF UNVEIL, YOU KNOW, DESIRE,

UNLESS YOU UNVEIL REPRESSION.

Orozco: I LIKE TO WORK HERE, I LIKE TO WALK.

IT WAKES ME UP, PARIS.

JUST A FEW BLOCKS OF WALKING CAN HAPPEN MANY THINGS,

AND I LIKE TO OBSERVE THESE THINGS

AND TO ENJOY THEM.

THE CAMERA IS AN INSTRUMENT THAT I USE

AS AN EXCUSE TO LOOK AT THESE THINGS.

SO THE CAMERA IS A WAY OF AWARENESS.

EVEN WHEN I WAS A KID, I REMEMBER,

THE STREETS THAT I WALKED IN MEXICO,

GOING FROM MY HOUSE TO SCHOOL,

I CAN REMEMBER ALL THE PUDDLES IN BETWEEN

AND ALL THE ACCIDENTS IN THE SIDEWALK.

I ALWAYS LIKED THIS, TO LOOK AT THIS.

I DON'T HAVE A STUDIO,

SO I DON'T HAVE A SPECIFIC PLACE OF PRODUCTION.

I FOUND THAT SOMETIMES THE STUDIO IS AN ISOLATED PLACE

AND AN ARTIFICIAL PLACE,

LIKE A BUBBLE, THAT I'M NOT SO INTERESTED,

BECAUSE I THINK IT GETS OUT OF REALITY.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE A STUDIO IS

THAT YOU HAVE TO BE CONFRONTED WITH REALITY ALL THE TIME.

YOU HAVE TO BE IN THE STREETS, YOU HAVE TO WALK AROUND,

YOU HAVE TO -- TO BE OUTDOORS.

I TRY TO BE INTIMATE WITH EVERYTHING I CAN.

TO BE INTIMATE, YOU HAVE TO OPEN YOURSELF

AND YOU HAVE TO TRUST WHAT IS AROUND YOU.

AND THEN YOU GENERATE SIGNS OF INTIMACY

WITH THESE THINGS, AND THEN ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE

CAN HAVE THAT SAME RELATIONSHIP

WITH THE WORLD.

I DON'T HAVE A TECHNIQUE,

I HAVE DIFFERENT, MANY DIFFERENT WAYS TO WORK.

BUT WHEN I FINISH SOMETHING,

I NEED TO INVENT SOMETHING ELSE,

IN A DIFFERENT MEDIUM, IN A DIFFERENT PLACE.

THE CITROEN IS NOT JUST A CAR.

IT'S A SPECIAL CAR AND CHARGED WITH SIGNIFICANCE

BECAUSE IT'S A CULTURAL OBJECT,

BUT IT'S NOT JUST AN ICON BECAUSE IT'S ALSO

A MACHINE THAT HAS A FUNCTION.

AND TO REMAKE IT ON ITS OWN LOGIC,

YOU ARE AT THE SAME TIME ANALYZING THIS ICON

THAT IT BECOMES SOMETHING ACTIVE AGAIN.

I MEAN, I DID IT WITH ONE ASSISTANT,

CUTTING IT TOGETHER.

WE WORKED FOR A MONTH IN A GARAGE.

IT WAS QUITE AN INTIMATE WORK, IT WAS VERY NICE.

IT WAS A LOT OF WORK.

I EXTRACTED THE CENTER AND PUT IT BACK TOGETHER.

ALL THIS ON ONE SIDE AND LATERALLY,

YOU SEE IT LIKE A NORMAL CAR.

BUT WHEN YOU WALK AROUND IT,

YOU HAVE THE PERSPECTIVE DISTORTED.

HERE I WROTE SOMETHING.

[ SPEAKING SPANISH ]

WHICH WOULD READ SOMETHING LIKE,

"TRANSPORT SYSTEM BEYOND THE VANISHING POINT."

AND THEN ALSO, THESE ARE MORE,

LIKE ORGANIC DRAWINGS, JUST LOOSE.

THE REAL DRAWING WAS IN THE CAR ITSELF.

BECAUSE YOHAVE TO MAKE THE LINE VERY PRECISE.

AND THAT TOOK LIKE A WEEK.

YOU CAN KEEP CUTTING IT, YOU CAN DO ANOTHER CUT

AND ANOTHER CUT AND ANOTHER CUT, UNTIL INFINITE,

AND YOU WILL NEVER FINISH.

Woman: HE HAD TO COME TO THE SUPERMARKET WITH ME

TO HELP ME CARRY STUFF BACK.

BUT OF COURSE, THERE, HE STARTED PLAYING WITH THE FOOD

BECAUSE HE WAS BORED ABOUT ME

READING ALL THE LABELS AND THE INGREDIENTS.

HE REALIZED WHAT AN ORDERED,

PERFECT WORLD THE SUPERMARKET IS.

AND HE REALIZED THE MINUTE

YOU PUT IT BACK AND IT'S NOT IN ITS PLACE,

THERE'S THIS TERRIBLE CHAOS THAT THEY GENERATE

JUST FROM PUTTING SOMETHING THAT'S NOT RIGHT,

AND YOU FEEL IMMEDIATELY SOMETHING IS WRONG.

SO THEN HE BROUGHT THE POTATOES WITH THE NOTEBOOKS

AND THEN HE PUT THE CAT FOOD

WITH THE WATERMELONS.

IT'S ACTUALLY ALL VERY BANAL WITH HIM.

THERE'S LITTLE MYSTERY.

IT'S ALL VERY BASIC, IT'S JUST THIS INCREDIBLE CURIOSITY

ABOUT THINGS THAT YOU TAKE FOR GRANTED

THAT SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW, HE GETS FASCINATED WITH.

Orozco: WHAT I LIKE ABOUT GAMES IS

THAT A GAME IS A THING ON ITS OWN.

SO YOU HAVE A LITTLE WORLD

IN THIS BOARD OR IN THIS TABLE DESIGNED TO PERFECTION

SO YOU CAN PLAY IN A LANDSCAPE, AND WHEN IT IS A GOOD GAME,

IT IS SO PASSIONATE THAT YOU CAN REALLY GET INTO THIS WORLD

AND JUST LIVE IN IT.

WHEN YOU HAVE A NORMAL PINGPONG GAME YOU HAVE A NET,

WHICH IS A NULL-SPACE

BETWEEN TWO SPACES,

BUT INSTEAD OF TWO PEOPLE PLAYING, YOU HAVE

FOUR PEOPLE PLAYING IN FOUR TABLES, YOU OPEN THAT SPACE.

SO THE NET IS OPEN, AND WHAT YOU HAVE THERE IS A NEW SPACE,

AND THAT IS A SPACE THAT I'M INTERESTED IN,

THE IN BETWEEN SPACE,

BECAUSE IT'S A NEW SPACE I COULD DO ANYTHING I WANTED.

I DECIDED TO MAKE A POND.

I WOULD SAY IT'S JUST AN ARBITRARY DECISION.

BUT THEN IF YOU WANT TO CONNECT THAT

WITH THE POND IN INDIAN CULTURE

AND RELATED WITH THE LOTUS FLOWER

AND THE BEGINNING OF THE UNIVERSE,

AND THE POND AS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE,

YOU CAN.

ONE DAY I SAW THE FOUCAULT PENDULUM,

AND AS YOU KNOW,

IT'S THE WAY THAT IT WAS PROVED THAT THE EARTH MOVES.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE THIS PENDULUM HANGING FROM VERY HIGH,

WHICH IS CONSTANTLY MOVING, BECAUSE THE EARTH IS ROTATING.

THEN I DECIDED, WHAT HAPPENS IF ONE OF THE BALLS

IN THE BILLIARD IS A PENDULUM?

AND THEN ALSO

INSTEAD OF HAVING A RECTANGULAR TABLE

I DECIDED TO HAVE AN ELLIPTICAL TABLE

OR AN OVAL TABLE,

SO THEN WE WOULD PLAY MORE CLOSER

TO THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE.

IN BILLIARDS,

BECAUSE IT'S RECTANGULAR, YOU CAN CALCULATE

HOW THE BALL IS GOING TO BOUNCE,

BUT IN THIS CASE WHEN THE BALL STARTS TO TOUCH THIS OVAL

IT JUST STARTS TO BOUNCE AROUND AND AROUND

AND THEN JUST GETS LOST TOTALLY.

ANYWAY, IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT GAME,

AND IT'S MORE COMPLEX IN MANY WAYS.

IT'S ALSO MUCH MORE BORING THAN A NORMAL BILLIARD GAME, BUT --

AND ALSO I DIDN'T PUT ANY RULES EXCEPT THE BASIC RULES

OF HITTING TWO BALLS WITH YOUR OWN BALL.

AND PEOPLE PLAY IT, I PLAY IT SOMETIMES,

AND THE RULES, THEY HAVE TO BE INVENTED.

I TRY TO USE THE TOOLS THAT EVERYONE CAN USE.

I DON'T WANT TO BE A SPECIALIST

IN A TECHNIQUE THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT.

I PREFER TO BE A BEGINNER.

NO, I LIKE TO LEARN

HOW TO FIX CARS, AND THEN I DID THE CITROEN.

I MEAN, I'M NOT AN EXPERT IN CARS.

EVEN I THINK SOMETIMES WHEN I DO, LIKE A CERAMIC,

IT'S LIKE A HOBBY FOR ME.

I THINK, IT'S MORE

LIKE, "WELL, YEAH, I LIKE CERAMICS, IT'S NICE.

I WANT TO LEARN A LITTLE BIT."

IT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU DEFINE A HOBBY.

NORMALLY WHEN YOU DO POTTERIES,

YOU ARE VERY MUCH AWARE OF THIS EMPTY CENTER SPACE.

IN THIS CASE, I WAS NOT SO INTERESTED

IN THE CENTER, BUT AS A MASS.

FOR THAT REASON, I NEEDED A CLAY THAT WAS SPECIAL.

AND THIS WORKSHOP USED TO BE A BRICK FACTORY BEFORE,

BUT THEY HAVE THESE MACHINES TO PRODUCE CLAY THAT I NEED

VERY FAST.

SO IN ONE DAY, YOU CAN DO

A WHOLE AMOUNT OF HOURS,

ALMOST LIKE A WORKER DOING A MECHANICAL THING,

AND FOR ME, THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

THE THINKING PROCESS IS RELATED WITH THE BODY IN MANY WAYS.

TO BE MOVING IN A TRAIN

OR TO BE LOOKING AT THE OCEAN,

TO BE WORKING WITH MY HANDS

WITH THE CLAY AND VERY PHYSICAL, ALL GENERATES A STIMULUS

IN THE BRAIN AND YOU ARE THINKING.

THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE BRAIN

AND THE BREATHING AND THE SWEATING

AND THE TIME THAT YOU SPEND AND HOW YOU SLOW DOWN THINKING

OR YOU ACCELERATE THINKING,

YOU JUST GENERATE THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THINKING.

SO WHEN I FEEL THAT IT SHOULD BE READY,

IT'S A QUITE SUBJECTIVE THING, BUT IT'S JUST THAT

THE SHAPE SHOULD REPRESENT WHAT JUST HAPPENED BEFORE.

THE POT IS A VERY COMPLEX INSTRUMENT IN HUMAN HISTORY.

IT CAN BE RELATED WITH MEXICO IF YOU WANT,

BUT I THINK IT CAN BE RELATED WITH GREECE,

IT CAN BE RELATED WITH EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD

BECAUSE POTTERY

IS JUST PART OF OUR HISTORY.

THE DIVISION BETWEEN WORK AND EVERYDAY LIFE

IS VERY STRONG.

IN MEXICO IS THE SAME.

AND THAT SPACE IN BETWEEN WORK AND LIFE

IS THE SPACE THAT IS VERY HARD TO NEGOTIATE FOR EVERYBODY.

LEISURE TIME OR PLEASURE TIME

OR KNOWLEDGE TIME OR RESEARCH TIME OALL --

THAT IS SPACE THAT IS LEFT OVER

BECAUSE THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO WORK

AND THEN TO SUSTAIN YOUR LIFE OR SOMETHING,

BUT THEN ALL THE SPACES

IN BETWEEN ARE A BIT LOST.

SO EVERY CITIZEN HAS TO FIGHT FOR THOSE SPACES.

WHEN YOU LIVE AND YOU WORK IN THE SAME PLACE,

EVERYTHING IS PART OF THE WORK.

EVERY FURNITURE IS IMPORTANT, EVERY LITTLE THING,

EVEN THE TRASH.

THE CONTRADICTION THAT I HAVE

IS THAT WHEN I SAY I DON'T WANT TO PRODUCE THINGS,

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS THIS NECESSITY OF PRODUCING

SIGNS OF COMMUNICATION,

A KIND OF MIRROR OF WHAT I'M DOING,

AND MAYBE IT'S AN OBSESSION OF BUILDING BRIDGES

OF COMMUNICATION WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

Antoni: A ROPE IS AN UMBILICAL CORD.

YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING THAT CONNECTS TWO THINGS,

WHICH SORT OF IS WHAT "MOOR" IS ABOUT.

IT'S ABOUT ALL THESE PEOPLE BEING,

YOU KNOW, MY LIFE SORT OF CONNECTING ALL THESE PEOPLE.

THE IDEA WAS TO TAKE ALL THESE VERY DIFFERENT MATERIALS,

BUT ALSO LIVES,

AND SORT OF BRING THEM TOGETHER THROUGH THE ROPE-MAKING PROCESS.

MY MOTHER'S FALL I PUT IN THERE,

AND THEN MY FRIEND PAT MADE THIS PIECE WITH HAMMOCKS,

SO THIS IS, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS.

ANOTHER FRIEND'S PIECE, DOUG, THIS IS HIS HI-8 TAPE

THAT WE TOOK APART.

AND THIS IS SORT OF MY FAVORITE SECTION.

THIS IS THE SECTION OF THE GRANDMOTHERS.

THIS RED DRESS IS MY FATHER'S MOTHER'S CHRISTMAS DRESS.

I WONDER WHETHER THE VIEWER CAN IN SOME WAY UNCOVER

THESE STORIES THROUGH THEIR EXPERIENCE OF THE OBJECT,

WHETHER THESE STORIES ARE SOMEHOW HELD IN THE MATERIAL.

Woman: WITH A LOT OF THE MATERIALS, WHAT WAS DONE

IS THEY WERE CUT UP INTO STRIPS, OR SAY,

IF IT WAS AN ELECTRICAL CORD, IT WAS TAKEN APART

AND ALL THE WIRES INSIDE WERE TAKEN APART,

AND THEN TWISTED TOGETHER

WITH OTHER MATERIALS TO CREATE A ROPE.

Antoni: SINCE I WAS A LITTLE GIRL,

MY MOTHER AND I WOULD MAKE THINGS TOGETHER.

ACTUALLY, THE WHOLE FAMILY

WOULD MAKE THINGS TOGETHER.

AND I LOVE THE HANDMADE IN ANY FORM IT TAKES.

THERE ARE SO MANY OBJECTS THAT WE COME IN CONTACT WITH

THAT WE'VE LOST A CONNECTION TO WHAT THEY'RE MADE OF,

WHO MADE THEM, SO THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME,

TO SORT OF, IN THE OBJECT,

ON THE SURFACE OF THE OBJECT,

SOMEHOW GIVE YOU A HISTORY OF HOW THAT OBJECT HAS MADE

ITS WAY INTO THE WORLD.

TO MAKE THIS PIECE, WHAT I DID IS

I DIPPED MYSELF

IN A TUB OF LARD.

THE PIECE IS CALLED "EUREKA,"

AND IT WAS INSPIRED BY THE STORY OF ARCHEMEDES.

AND ARCHEMEDES WAS ASKED BY THE KING

HOW MUCH GOLD WAS IN HIS CROWN.

AND HE WAS KILLING HIMSELF, HOW CAN HE MEASURE CAPACITY?

WELL, HE'S IN THE BATHTUB ONE NIGHT,

AND HE REALIZES THAT HIS BODY

IS DISPLACING THE WATER IN THE TUB.

HE GETS VERY EXCITED,

JUMPS OUT, AND SCREAMS, "EUREKA!"

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ARCHEMEDES' BODY

WAS THE TOOL FOR THE EXPERIMENT,

JUST AS MY BODY IS THE TOOL FOR MAKING.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY IS THIS IDEA

THAT HE CAME TO THIS KNOWLEDGE THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE

OF HIS BODY.

AND THAT'S WHY I DO THESE KIND OF

EXTREME ACTS WITH MY BODY.

I FEEL THAT THE VIEWER HAS A BODY, TOO,

AND CAN EMPATHIZE WITH WHAT I PUT MYSELF THROUGH

TO MAKE THE ARTWORK.

TO ME, SO MUCH MEANING IS IN HOW WE CHOOSE

TO MAKE SOMETHING, BOTH IN ART,

BUT IN ALL OBJECTS THAT WE DEAL WITH IN OUR LIVES.

I KIND OF THINK OF THE WORK

AS LIKE THE VIEWERS COMING IN ON THE SCENE OF A CRIME,

AND I'VE LEFT ALL THESE CLUES FOR THEM TO UNCOVER.

I DID THIS SHOW,

AND THE EXHIBITION SPACE WAS CONNECTED TO A DAIRY FARM.

RIGHT AWAY, I SAID, "CAN YOU GIVE ME A TOUR OF THE BARN?"

AND I NOTICED THAT TROUGHS ARE MADE OUT OF TUBS.

I THOUGHT, "WHAT IF I TAKE A BATH?

WILL THE COW CONTINUE TO DRINK?"

THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW,

I'VE DRUNK FROM THE COW MY WHOLE LIFE,

AND I COULD SORT OF CREATE THIS RELATIONSHIP.

WELL, COWS ARE VERY CURIOUS.

THEY ALL CAME, STARTED DRINKING,

AND IT ALMOST REVERSED THE WHOLE RELATIONSHIP.

SHE LOOKS LIKE SHE'S NURSING FROM ME.

AND THE TITLE OF THE PIECE IS "2038,"

WHICH IS THE TAG IN THE EAR,

AND THE REASON I CHOSE THAT IS I FELT THAT THAT EPITOMIZED

OUR RELATIONSHIP TO THE COW,

THAT IT WAS ALMOST LIKE A --

HARDLY AN ANIMAL ANYMORE, BUT A BIOLOGICAL MACHINE,

AND I WANTED THAT TO CONTRAST

THE KIND OF TENDERNESS OF THE IMAGE.

I WAS REALLY THINKING ABOUT THE VIRGIN MARY

AND THESE IMAGES

WE KNOW OF HER, LIKE,

THE VIRGIN MARY IS NOT ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING PHYSICAL.

NO SEX, SHE DOESN'T GET TO DIE.

THE ONLY THING SHE'S ALLOWED TO DO IS NURSE.

AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT,

HOW DOES THAT IMAGE AFFECT MY IDEAS OF MOTHERHOOD?

AND THAT SORT OF IDYLLIC MOMENT

THAT WE KNOW FROM THOSE PAINTINGS,

BUT ALSO FROM PAMPERS ADS OF MOTHER AND CHILD.

WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT IS A BUCKET

FROM A CONSTRUCTION TRACTOR.

IT WAS TWICE THE SIZE.

AND I GOT THE BUCKET CUT IN HALF AND I MELTED IT DOWN.

AND I CREATED ALL THESE FORMS INSIDE.

"CRADLE" IS A PIECE WHICH IS REALLY

ABOUT THESE THINGS CRADLING EACH OTHER.

YOU KNOW, IT ENDS WITH THE LOOP SPOON, WHICH IS LIKE

WHEN THE CHILD IS FIRST BECOMING INDEPENDENT,

CAN FIRST FEED ITSELF.

AND THEN IT'S ABOUT THAT NEED THAT WE NEVER LOSE, TO BE HELD.

ALL THE COW PIECES WERE AN EFFORT TO RELATE TO THE COW,

TO UNDERSTAND IT AND TO UNDERSTAND

MY RELATIONSHIP TO IT.

AND SO FOR ME TO GET ON MY HANDS AND KNEES IS REALLY

TO IMITATE THE ANIMAL IN SOME WAY.

BUT ALSO, IT'S CLEARLY A SUBMISSIVE POSE.

THIS WORK IS MADE OUT OF RAWHIDE.

AND I MADE A MOLD OF MYSELF ON MY HANDS AND KNEES.

AND THEN I TOOK THE RAWHIDE WHEN IT WAS VERY MALLEABLE

AND I DRAPED IT OVER THE MOLD.

I WORKED WITH ALL THE FOLDS,

SCULPTING THEM TO DEPICT THE BODY UNDERNEATH THE VEIL.

THEN, WHEN THE HIDE WAS COMPLETELY HARD,

I REMOVED THE MOLD FROM THE INSIDE.

SO ACTUALLY, SHE'S TOTALLY HOLLOW INSIDE.

AND THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE

I REALLY WANT THE VIEWER TO FEEL BOTH THE ABSENCE OF ví

AND THE ABSENCE OF THE COW.

I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING

THAT SOAP WAS MADE OUT OF LARD,

THAT WE'RE CLEANING THE BODY WITH THE BODY

SEEMED QUITE CURIOUS TO ME.

SO I HAD THIS IDEA THAT I WOULD

MAKE A REPLICA OF MYSELF IN CHOCOLATE,

AND IN SOAP, AND I WOULD

FEED MYSELF WITH MYSELF BY LICKING THE CHOCOLATE.

AND WASH MYSELF WITH MYSELF.

BOTH THE LICKING AND THE BATHING

ARE QUITE GENTLE AND LOVING ACTS.

BUT I'M SLOWLY ERASING MYSELF.

FOR ME IT'S ABOUT THAT CONFLICT,

THAT KIND OF LOVE/HATE RELATIONSHIP WE HAVE

WITH OUR PHYSICAL APPEARANCE.

AND REALLY LIKE THE PROBLEM I HAVE

OF LOOKING IN THE MIRROR AND THINKING,

"IS THAT WHO I AM?"

AS I WAS MAKING THE ROPE,

I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE REALLY NICE TO WALK ON THIS ROPE.

[ LAUGHING ]

I WAS THINKING OF THE ROPE AS A KIND OF LIFELINE,

YOU KNOW, THE STORY OF MY LIFE,

SO I THOUGHT, WOW, IF I COULD WALK ON IT,

THAT WOULD REALLY BE BEAUTIFUL.

SO IT WAS SORT OF MAKING THE ROPE

THAT MADE ME COME TO THE IDEA

TO LEARN TO TIGHTROPE.

I HAVE PRACTICED TIGHT ROPING FOR ABOUT AN HOUR A DAY.

AND AFTER ABOUT A WEEK,

I STARTED TO FEEL LIKE I'M NOW GETTING MY BALANCE.

I STARTED TO NOTICE THAT

IT WASN'T THAT I WAS GETTING MORE BALANCED,

BUT THAT I WAS GETTING MORE COMFORTABLE

WITH BEING OUT OF BALANCE.

RATHER THAN GETTING NERVOUS

AND OVERCOMPENSATING, I COULD JUST COMPENSATE ENOUGH,

AND I THOUGHT,

I WISH I COULD DO THAT IN MY LIFE.

AFTER GOING DOWN MANY DIFFERENT AVENUES,

I DECIDED TO MAKE

THIS WORK "TOUCH."

AND WHAT I DID IS I WENT HOME TO THE BAHAMAS,

TO THE BEACH THAT WAS DIRECTLY

IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE THAT I GREW UP IN.

IT MADE SENSE FOR ME TO GO BACK TO THIS HORIZON

I HAD LOOKED AT MY WHOLE LIFE.

I THOUGHT IT WOULD HAVE MUCH MORE TENSION

IF I COULD WALK ALONG THE ROPE AND AS IT DIPPED

THAT JUST FOR A MOMENT I WOULD TOUCH THE HORIZON.

AND SO AT A CERTAIN POINT,

AFTER MAKING THE VIDEO "TOUCH,"

AND SORT OF LIVING MY FANTASY OF WALKING ON AIR,

WALKING ON THE HORIZON,

I THOUGHT, I REALLY NEED TO DO A PIECE ABOUT FALLING.

AND I WENT BACK TO THIS IDEA

THAT I WANTED TO MAKE THE ROPE TO WALK ON.

WE FOUND A GUY AT MYSTIC SEAPORT

AND HE GAVE US A PERSONAL TOUR,

AND SHOWED US THIS QUITE BEAUTIFUL ROPE-MAKING MACHINE.

AND WHEN WE SAW THAT MACHINE, THEN WE GOT THE IDEA, YOU KNOW,

TO MAKE OUR OWN MINI VERSION OF IT.

MAKING THE ROPE BROUGHT ME TO LEARNING HOW TO SPIN.

WHERE WITH "MOOR" WE'RE USING EVERYDAY MATERIALS,

NOW WE'RE USING THE MOST TRADITIONAL MATERIAL

WHICH IS HEMP.

ON A MATERIAL LEVEL,

I'M GOING BACK TO THE SOURCE,

BUT ALSO THOSE CRAFTS ARE SORT OF THE BEGINNING.

AND I THINK THAT THIS TAKING ON THIS WOMEN'S TRADITION ISN'T --

IS ALSO NOT A SMALL THING.

YOU HAVE TO PUT THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF ENERGY INTO THE TWIST.

TOO MUCH ENERGY MAKES THE ROPE WEAK.

AND TOO LITTLE ENERGY MAKES THE ROPE WEAK.

SO THE CORRELATION

THAT I SEE WITH LEARNING TO WALK ON THE TIGHT WIRE,

THE LOOSER I WAS, THE EASIER IT WAS TO BALANCE.

I'M NOT SURE WHAT THIS SCULPTURE I'M MAKING,

WITH THE HEMP AND THE TIGHTROPE WILL BE EXACTLY,

BUT IT WILL BE ABOUT THE FALL.

IT WILL BE ABOUT THE IMPOSSIBILITY

OF THAT ILLUSION.

TO LEARN MORE ABOUT

"ART:21 -- ART IN THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY,"

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